Stadium Expansion - Bushey Hall

Will the council elections have any effect? I know little about this but on BBC London News there was a vox pop complaining about the club moving to Bushey.

 

Does Toney need someone to take care of him?

We're a big old family club.

 

You would think that with that extra housing being built on allotments they could offer housing to the people living in flats behind Rookery and then expand the back fo that stand to upgrade bars/food etc.

I remember Harrys Bar that used to be on the ground floor level in Lewington era that was great fun.

 

Something like the Bristol city fan bar in the home end (seen in all those memes) would be fantastic

 

Plan rejected. Close thread.

 

Link?

 

Well I’ve just watched the relevant bit it and I think the Lib Dems are being economical with the truth in that statement.

You can watch the exchange for yourself here:

https://hertsmere.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/564345

(2 mins between 2:16.32 to 2:18.28)

They were considering an application to put a tree preservation order in on the golf course site. Mr Lib Dem Cllr tried to shoehorn in the stadium rumours and was told by the chair it wasn’t relevant to the application at hand. She then invited the head of planning - who is an officer rather than an elected person - to speak briefly. He confirmed the bit about employment land and ‘not going forward’ with the submission to the local plan. However, it was hardly a thorough examination or rejection and I suspect Veladail will have other ways in and appeal options. That’s if Watford want them to push it further.

Ultimately money talks in planning matters and in true transfer thread style my gut feeling is if we want to move there we’ll be able to. It’s worth remembering the first set of planning hoops our pals a few miles up the M1 had to jump through was to change Luton’s local plan midway through its life…and they achieved that with an independent hearing before a planning inspector.

 

******* nimbys.

 

Is it actually possible to transform the entire character of north Bushey for the worse?

 

Nice dream while it lasted, but I think it’s been clear for a while now that Watford are going to develop VR and use the hospital land to eventually expand the GT stand.

 

Yes - people have put leaded light pseudo Tudor double glazing in perfectly good 1950s design council houses.

 

Ultimately the owners of the land will want to extract the greatest value they can out of it. So the first step will be to challenge the decision not to include it as an employment site. They will have a stronger case once Hertsmere changes the designation of other green belt land in its draft plan.

if they win the argument then they will need a development partner to design and deliver a scheme. I doubt WFC have the resource to build a stadium without significant new investment. As Watford and surrounding area grows in population, the core task for the club is to build support for the club within a five mile radius, and that means becoming an established top 23 club. If they manage that the investment will come and a big stadium will be on the cards. That might be a new site or an expansion of Vicarage Road.

 

Thank heavens for that - it was absolute madness to consider a move from Vicarage Road. I know history seems to be out of fashion, but there’s no place like it.

So glad this was thrown out, I very much hope that we don’t press the issue and concentrate on improving what we have and utilising the extra hospital land.

I just wish they’d bring in safe standing already, but it looks like COVID might’ve put paid to that now eh?

If they did bring it in, it *could* increase capacity and reduce the need for a move. It would also strengthen the argument for the Croxley Rail Link (if we get a change of mayor or something changes...).

 

As I understand it the current safe standing plans being pursued by various clubs envisage no increase in capacity. It’s one seat swapped for one sit/stand space.

 

People keep mentioning 'extra hospital land', what is this meant to be?

 

Not a lot useful for us. The main hospital is going to be a new building built on the site of the current car park. Once operational, they are going to demolish the current hospital buildings, and release the land for housing. Basically the maternity block. However the listed workhouse block immediately behind the GT stand will be retained. Effectively that restricts any expansion of the stadium. There will be land released at the rookery end of the GT, and the master plan shows that as retail/leisure use. The stadium could go higher. The allotment land behind the rookery is to become a 1,200 space multi storey car park at the corner of GT/Rookery with the rest housing.

it’s just my opinion, but the more housing around the stadium actually makes it harder to redevelop. Especially once fully occupied, as residents have votes and object to intensification of a site like football stadiums, even though they moved to live next to one. The council will say they are supportive, but that will be tempered by concerns on congestion, crowd movement, etc, Blimey they complained about the lights to keep the grass growing!

Frankly the flats behind the Rookery really hamper redevelopment of that area, with the hospital one side and vicarage road the other. I think the only option would be a much larger Elton John stand pushing back over Occupation road. If we are to stay, some judicial plot buying along the boundary of occupation road might be a good plan.

 

Do you mean negotiating with what around 30 separate owners to buy their gardens or most it where some have garages providing access to their vehicles or buying all 30 houses. Land assembly might work in some locations but this looks very difficult. The club is in a land locked site and can only make limited improvements on capacity as befits a yo yo club

 

Disagree.

The club needs to grow if it is stay and compete in the PL. It needs more revenue and that comes from either increasing ticket prices, increasing bums on seats, or increasing hospitality.

If the club can't move, and can't expand, don't moan if you find your seat swapped out for hospitality, your season ticket price has gone up, your replica shirt is more expensive, and our best players sold every year.

 

Yes piecemeal purchasing. For example the garage site, (as they become available). It’s a long term strategy. By buying your neighbours you mitigate their complaints, and it just gives you options, to expand your activities or to bundle up a big potential redevelopment footprint. For example the land could be used to improve revenue, both match and non match day. Say a fans zone that could also be used for events on non match days. The club have rented out a unit to a bakers on Vicarage Road. Probably for not a lot, but the income helps. Buying the garage and old print works might be useful. But only if you have a long term vision on how it contributes to improving the stadiums capacity to drive revenue.

After all from a sporting perspective the stadium is only really used on <30 match days a year. All the team support stuff is done from London Conley.

Ultimately though like many have said (and twisting the old turnover is vanity, profit sanity phrase). We only need a stadium big enough to make us money, not to show off to your contemporaries. That should drive the decisions, both staying where we are or moving nearby.

A couple of examples for us to ponder. Leicester are planning an enlarged stadium because they have established sporting success. Each time they go up in the competitiveness ladder, they review the offer in terms of how they can grow support and income. While on the other hand can you quantify the impact of having a very small stadium on Bournemouth’s recent relegation and failure to get promotion? If they had played in an Amex style and size home ground would they still be in the premier league?

A new stadium is as much about opportunities to grow income as it is about a better spectator experience. Not very romantic for long standing supporters. Most I am sure would be happy with a top quality 25,000 capacity vicarage road.

 

If you are interested in the hospital proposed layout it’s on the Watford planning portal

https://pa.watford.gov.uk/publicacc...LUSTRATIVE_MASTERPLAN_LANDSCAPE_UL-932061.pdf

 

You make very sensible reasons for why we need to do it and i agree with that sentiment i just question a piecemeal plan of trying to buy parts of people gardens or their houses over many years with a land assembly notion that ultimately still requires planning permission to build upwards affecting those local residents who don't want a "tower" or who then hold out for unrealistic prices let alone those who will not sell for a myriad of reasons-not always logical.
My own personal view is that the prospect of relegation/being a yo yo club impacts how much we are willing to speculate as a club on either moving to another site or a long term house buying plan that only needs a few "hold outs" to scupper the master plan.

 

I view VR in much the same way as I do Goodison Park. Loads of history but basically a museum at this point.

The VRE and Rookery are creaking, the ground experience is pretty horrific and we have people living in the stadium. The VRE most specifically is a true dump of a stand. Sure, the owners do the best they can with what they have but there's not much they can do with it.

You'll always have fans who are overly attached, pretending it's love but really it's a 5 minute walk away or something. Brentford have an amazing new stadium, absolutely perfect for them yet there was still a group that didn't want them to leave.

We do have a fan base who live in the past. They want the quaint football club of the 80's and 90's and aren't interested at all in progression. On or off the pitch.

 

Can you imagine the scenario if the position were to be reversed.
Imagine if you will, that throughout the latter part of the club's history the stadium had been at Bushey Hall, what would be the reaction if the club submitted an application to move to Vicarage Road, almost right in the town centre?
Putting aside nostalgia, history, emotions, all that kind of thing, and just looking at the map, and considering accessibility, I think most would consider Bushey Hall to be the better option.
Having said that, I am perfectly happy with our present home.

 

Great news. Over the last few years the Vic has grown into a decent, modern stadium and the atmosphere has improved massively.

All you have to do is ask Spurs, West Ham, Arsenal or Cardiff fans how they feel about their shiny new grounds that were going to 'take them to the next level' and how the matchday experience is now far worse to know it would have been a mistake.

 

Fully agree, with the caveat that I’d want a new stadium that has a bit of character at least. You mention Brentford and theirs has that if you ask me, I’d be over the moon if we had their stadium. The proposed plans for our new stadium also had that, so I would’ve been happy with that. What I wouldn’t want is a soulless bowl like Southampton or Reading, basically I’d want something to be proud of.

 

For Arsenal, I think all they were after was a big capacity. Is the experience there “far worse”? Highbury was ‘the library’ after all.
At Spurs, I thought all their fans were swooning over the new stadium. It’s not the reason for their lack of success, which has been going on for 60 years.
Cardiff I don’t know about but I had the impression the issue was one of size: fine when they’re in the PL but half empty in the Championship.
West Ham’s move to the so-called ‘London Stadium’ was of course non-sensical.

 

100% agree. I don't know a single Arsenal fan who is happier at the emirates than highbury and it's done very little to progress them as a club. I actually think in 10-15 years not having a corporate bowl will be a selling point and help clubs brand themselves to new fans.

 

Ninian Park was old and crumbling, but is the best ground for atmosphere and character that I've ever been to.

 

I thought for Arsenal it was also increasing match day spend? At one point they definitely had the highest match day spend, adding lots of nice restaurants and bars gets fans there earlier and spending more money.

Obviously that hasn’t translated into investment on the pitch, but that has nothing to do with the stadium which is doing its job, just the owner.

 

Spurs fans love the ground once inside it - the complete lack of infrastructure around it is a major bone of contention (e.g. instead of 40000 fans all leaving at the same time to get x number of trains, there are now 60000 to get x numbers of trains, so massive congestion on the platforms, etc.). It is likely the "new" Wembley - come out of the ground and try to get on the usual tube timetable full of people coming back from Oxford Street with big bags of shopping

 

Re Arsenal, they increased capacity from 38k to 60k but increased match day revenue by 127% by virtue of a significantly better match day offering:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....tes-stadium-ten-years-on-was-it-worth-it/amp/