Do You Still Have Faith In Gino?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by folkestone orn, Dec 19, 2020.

?

Well?

  1. Yes

    39 vote(s)
    27.9%
  2. No

    101 vote(s)
    72.1%
  1. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Fair enough. For what it’s worth I think Pozzo was a great in championship and did a great job of making us competitive the season after that. I don’t think Mazarri was a poor appointment, but that was the season the player culture seemed to deteriorate combined with purchase strategy becoming more focused on player trading and less on the needs of the team. And from then debt increased every year until we collapsed last year. I don’t blame Pozzo for this year’s problems really as it’s just a consequence of the many years before that. I think we are in a real pickle now.

    If we had done a Norwich I think I’d have been frustrated but I didn’t get vexed when we did that in previous seasons under GT and Boothers.
     
    Knight GT and Since63 like this.
  2. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    No-one's trying to say Norwich fans were happy with their approach last season, but that wasn't the point being debated. My response was to someone saying that if GT had the attitude of some of our fans "we'd still be crawling around in the 4th tier"; I was pointing out that even GT with his drive and ambition accepted the reality of the financial imbalance facing such as WFC even BEFORE the advent of the EPL. Even in the days when it was feasible for such as ourselves, Oxford, Wimbledon etc to have a realistic stab at survival in the top league, he was aware that simply becoming an established top 30 club was an extremely difficult task. As was proven by the actions of the club when GT got us into the Prem, he did prefer to go the "Norwich route" with all its implications.
     
    Knight GT likes this.
  3. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Although the team that was promoted to the PL in 98/99 was a rare example of a borderline Championship/League 1 team massively overachieving. It didn't just need surgery to become competitive, it needed probably 9 new starters and a few more for the squad too.

    The Norwich team that went up in 18/19 was of a far higher quality.
     
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  4. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Fair comment, but the underlying principle remains.
     
  5. I don’t think Norwich's model is all that great.

    We had a great model and it got us promoted. Then we started blowing piles of cash on players like Gray, and when it didn’t work blaming and firing coach after coach.

    We meed to get back to the original model and the progressive entertaining football.
     
  6. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I'm not sure the original model will work anymore in the EPL. The conveyor belt of obscure, cheap talent has dried up & the interchanging of players between us & Udinese is now much more complex after Brexit.
     
  7. The model wasn't ‘use Udinese cast offs’. Thats was a means to kick start things quickly.

    The original Udinese model was work twice as hard as anyone else in hunting out talent and potential.

    The model should be beating everyone to the punch by being aware of Toney 2 years before anyone else.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  8. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I think I would like to go back to their original method. I think fans, I include myself in this, get excited about big money signings when actually all it does is put the club under pressure to make sure they live up to tag or we can sell on. Doucoure and Sarr are prime examples. Doucoure didn't cost too much so there was less pressure to sell but after one season it was clear we would make a profit on him. Sarr cost us a fortune and right now is not worth the money. I think he's been ok and he certainly has put in the hard yards this season but we need to get promoted to have any chance of getting the money back on him.
    The Pozzo model always looked at Sth America and with Brexit it would seem that's the better way of going again. @Smudger will tell you there is still a lot of talent that remains untouched that we could be looking at.
     
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  9. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    There certainly is and at far lower prices than in Brazil. We also really need to up our game in Africa and build links in other fast developing markets at youth level as in the Antipodes. But at the same time really need to massively up our domestic scouting for the Academy. Really sell it and move it forward. Yes there is going to be a huge competition with PL clubs and the location where we are but we can still look at areas in the UK which we used to do in the four nations and Ireland as well. And keep picking up younger players that are showing real promise from lower down the pyramid as Norwich, Swansea and Brentford have done.

    Because as KGT has mentioned we cannot hope to compete in the transfer market once players reach a certain age and visibility.
     
  10. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    That would be great, but they only ever did that in under-scouted regions, not in the free-for-all in the major footballing regions. They then used Udinese and Granada to process the high volume of players they hoovered up, and then us when they bought us.
    I have never seen any evidence of them being able to scout adequately in the regions they are now forced to work in more often.
     
  11. Agree they haven't. They need to. If we work twice as hard and twice as smart as everyone else there is no reason we can't become the best at it.
     
  12. reids

    reids First Team

    The Udinese model was to target undervalued areas, scout and purchase quality players from those areas and then flog on for big money. However the landscape has changed and now the big clubs have realised they don't want to go out and spend 40m+ on a player from Udinese, they're now cutting the middleman out and targeting these areas themselves as we've seen with the stockpiling of foreign youngsters by teams like City and Chelsea.

    Scouting reach for all clubs has expanded massively and the influx of data and video platforms like WyScout and InStat make it a few clicks of the mouse away to find if there's a 18 year old playing regularly in the Colombian top flight and then begin watching video of them. This has obviously had a massive effect on the quality of players that Udinese are able to bring in (as the Alexis Sanchezs of past are now being hoovered up by the big clubs earlier and earlier), we can still get lucky here and there (Joao Pedro etc) but the reality is the original Pozzo model is dead in the water and needs adapting to survive.

    However it is certainly possible. As @Smudger has said, Africa is however still a relatively untapped goldmine - none of the leagues in Africa (other than the leagues in Northern African countries like Egypt and Morocco) are on WyScout + InStat which makes data and video hard to come by which means you need boots on the ground to scout, Red Bull are doing this and currently have 9 Malians, 2 Zambians, 3 Ghanians and 1 Nigerian on their books. An increased presence in Asia would also be a good idea - in particular Japan and South Korea.

    Finally I'd take my chequebook out and purchase another club in Europe, the new work permit restrictions have closed many previous markets for English clubs but have also opened new avenues and opportunities. Playing just 40% of available minutes for a year at a club in the top division in Portugal or Belgium (Portugal would be preferential as there's a LOT of farm clubs in Belgium already and over half the clubs in the league are already owned by billionaires which bump up the price of a club - a lower tier Portuguese top division club would cost <5m) would give a player a work permit under the new rules which, if done right, could give us a good talent stream of players from our usual scouting areas that struggle to gain work permits, as well as the new areas of focus such as Asia and Africa. Scotland would also work however the number of minutes played needed for a work permit is much higher (around 80% I think) - I'm sure a Scottish club will cotton on to this soon and do well by acting as a farm location for talents to get work permits before getting a move to England.

    Now the question is - will the Pozzos adapt or will they carry on believing their model is working?
     
    wfcSinatra, CYHSYF, RMT79 and 9 others like this.
  13. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Are Scotland and England really treated differently for work permit purposes? Clearly they have different football administrations and are separate footballing nations, with international clearance needed for transfers, but immigration laws are a UK-wide thing aren't they?
     
  14. reids

    reids First Team

    I have no idea why (as I'd expect the same as what you've mentioned) but they are treated differently for some reason, always have been as well and yet no Scottish team has really taken advantage of that (other than Rangers signing Morelos who wouldn't have gained a work permit if joining an English club)
     
  15. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    Great post. What about buying/partnering with a bottom half Eredivise team? League quality drops away quite quickly. Don’t know how many billionaire owners there are there.

    Also, Djibril Toure went to Charleroi, where I believe Mogi Bayat’s brother is v senior in the hierarchy. Suggests that the Pozzos are alive to the Belgium route but also that using Bayat in some way (a double edged sword) could be a way to go to gaining a Belgian affiliate.
     
  16. reids

    reids First Team

    Yeah Holland is potentially another good shout, although I think they have tighter rules around home-grown players which could make things a bit harder in getting the foreign players game-time which limits the amount of players you could bring through but would still certainly be a possible destination! The Toure move has intrigued me from start to finish and gives me hope that Gino and the Pozzos are finding a new direction to take (as it's basically the signs of a potential shift to what I've said above!)
     
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  17. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I see you have 2 followers - I think that's enough to have a bit of fun and start firing out some transfer rumours.
     
  18. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    Up until Monday I believed Gino was a smart man guilty of poor decision making in the last two to two and a half years.
    If the reports on Dan Duck and his fitness are true and the baffling ineptitude of the last two appointments are included, it appears I may have misjudged him for the worse.
    There is still time to correct matters,if not this season,but it needs to start now.
    What worries me is that this has been said so many times in the last two years but it has so much more resonance today.
    Monday felt like a pivotal day in many respects.
    Let's hope Gino recognises this.
     
  19. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Squad Player

    I’m amazed I have 2!

    Good point though. Although I was thinking of going straight for the jugular and spouting off about hearing from a source that Ginocchio is looking to sell the club.
     
  20. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I'm hearing that too.
    One to watch.
     
  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    PL teams were aware of Ivan Toney 2 years before anyone else. He played for one in Newcastle.

    (Sorry being pedantic because I do actually agree with your point!)
     
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  22. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Think I’m right in saying Tony Bloom has done this at Brighton and purchased a team in Belgium for that very reason.

    Also, Patson Daka at Salzburg is a very good example of someone who has come from a small club in Africa and looks on the verge of making it big. Much the same as our signing of Djibril Toure in many ways - other than they have the correct pyramid for him to drop into and thrive. We cannot say the same.
     
    reids likes this.
  23. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    I recon Gino chose Watford because our fanbase is very placid and only vocal online. The tippy tapping of keyboards aren't going to make him change track.
     
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  24. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn Reservist

    I think Leicester and Sheffield United have Belgian sister clubs too.
    I think he chose us because we were a then cheaply available Championship club. Maybe also our proximity to London. Also, how else are we meant to express our views while games are going on behind closed doors!?
     
  25. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Through the medium of expessive dance
     
    LeedsOrn likes this.
  26. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

     
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  27. reids

    reids First Team

    When I say it's a couple of clicks away, I do honestly mean that!
     
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  28. See. Twice as hard and twice as smart is the way to go.
     
    reids likes this.
  29. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Careful mate, you shouldn't be leaving dodgy website tabs open when recording.
     
    reids likes this.
  30. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Squad Player

    Heard from a very reliable source that Gino is considering putting watford up for sale in the summer if promotion is not achieved. Potential buyers aware.
     
  31. RMT79

    RMT79 First Year Pro

    Good - I think we need new owners with new energy and a a fresh approach ..... to me it is clear we are being wound down in much the same way as Granada were ..... I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sarr end up at Udinese in the summer
     
    Markoa$ likes this.
  32. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Sarr to Udinese undisclosed would be infuriating.
     
    Markoa$ likes this.
  33. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Squad Player

    Also very believable.
     
  34. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    In the same way they didn't disclose Gueye had gone to Marseille?
     
  35. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    PRgate another misguided decision to add to the list. Sinking fast by the stern.
     
    CarlosKickaballs likes this.

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