I don’t like zonal marking. It’s more of a European concept brought over by foreign managers who aren’t used to the physical nature of the penalty box shenanigans of the English game. However, as much as I don’t like the concept, I can’t help but but feel better defenders would grasp it better than ours do. Whatever happened to playing to your strengths. We seem to cater for it in our attacking play. Silva may well prefer zonal defending but if the defenders available to him can’t grasp it, he has to change it until he has defenders available to him that do, rather than being stubborn about it. He says it’s not the zonal marking that’s the issue - but the goals against WBA, Arsenal, Man City and Everton say different. There’s possibly more that I can’t remember too.... Has it ever worked? Seem to remember Benitez used it at Liverpool initially and but for United, they’d have won the PL - and they did win the CL. But I’m struggling to remember anyone else ever using it to great levels of success? The above being said - if Silva is adamant about using zonal, get someone like Hyppia or Carragher in P/T or just for a couple of weeks to show how it should be played successfully, as it’s very unlikely the calibre of defender we need are going to be available or affordable in January.
There are fors and againsts with both systems. With man to man the defender has to watch the man plus watch the ball, a very hard thing to do against forwards with good movement on say a corner. The forward is always 1 step ahead because he knows what he is going to do. The other problem with man marking is offensive players don't know how to man mark, they are usually carp at it. I think the problem is less about the system and more what is going on in players heads. Zonal marking needs players with some brains.
Zonal marking is the latest fashion, but must have its merits as so many top managers use it. Can they all be wrong? Personally I think it gives forwards to much of an advantage. A clever forward can run into space and knows his marker will not follow him. He's allowed to get a run at the ball, whereas the zonal marker has a standing jump. This gives the forward too much of an advantage. In theory it sounds good, but in practise it doesn't seem to work for many clubs. For it to work you have to have players that are good at attacking the ball in the air. We don't have this, so it's not really a formation that is likely to work for us. To use it, you cannot go full zonal. Watford have to employ a part zonal system. Our best defender has to track their best attacker. If Watford were full zonal, then Prodl would stand in sector 2, for example, and someone like Antonio or Carroll would ensure they make a run to sector 3 or 4, knowing that Prodl won't be there. They would have to out jump Britos, Kabasele or Mapps, which is quite easy as they would have a running jump as opposed to a standing jump. With Zonal, defending players do know exactly where they have to be, so can appear to be more organised, but after the first corner or free kick the opposition can quickly see how you're lining up and the next corner/free kick they can adjust their runs and outwit the zonal defending side quite easily. Look at Everton's second goal. It's woeful defending. Both our defenders are on the wrong side of the two Everton players. Kabasele and Holebas should be goal side, but it's not their zone. It makes it all too easy for anyone with half a brain to find space to head unchallenged.
Would much prefer us to mark man to man rather than zonal marking. Too easy to shirk your responsibility. I can also never understand why you wouldn't have a defender on each post at a corner!
I could easily be wrong but I'm pretty sure most zonal systems are a mix The CBs normally man mark, the rest of the players pick up or block runners into a zone
As I've mentioned on here before, I analyse set-pieces every week and hope to become a set-piece coach in the very near future - There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with zonal marking - it's how you implement that zonal marking system up that decides whether it's effective or not. Ours is not set-up well which is why we're crap (I'm writing an in-depth analysis that should be done by the weekend that I'll post up here). Nor is there anything the defenders can really do, if you have a player told to stand on a line and attack the ball when it comes into his zone, he instantly has a disadvantage against players who can have a run-up of 8-10 yards before attacking the same ball. Defensively ability has nothing to do with it, momentum does. Zonal marking gets a bad rep because it's noticeable that zonal marking is used and it's against the norm. It's almost borderline xenophobic the hate that zonal marking gets, the likes of Merson etc who probably voted for Brexit claiming that zonal marking is imported rubbish and is at fault for every corner scored against a zonal marking system, yet plenty of corners are scored (i'd actually say more corners but have no stats to back that up) against teams that only man-mark, yet you never hear "it's that bloody man-marking system at fault again". Blaming zonal marking as a system is just nonsense, you need to look at how they've set-up the system (they aren't all the same), why they've done it and how teams have exploited it. Then you tweak it until it's perfect (which we aren't doing again btw). If you don't tweak it, then opponents will find holes in it, and you will give away goals. As for successes in the PL, how about Man City? They operate a purely zonal marking system, and have the smallest team in the league - yet they don't have a problem with conceding corners, but nope, can't praise zonal marking! (this is for corners conceded during the 16/17 season - Man City have the lowest corner conceded % - which ignores how many corners they faced) Better defenders won't help. More training sessions won't help. Tweaking the system to plug the current weaknesses in our system WILL (and there's plenty of weaknesses)
The answer to that is simple - do you want to save the shot, or stop it occurring in the first place? Players are much more likely to have an impact if they're in the mix in the box than they are of saving a goal-bound shot. Plus you'll be unlikely to catch anyone offside if you have players on the post.
When I played, certain players used to rush to the posts at corners before all the players were marked. It looked like they were hugging them. I think it was to shirk the responsibility of challenging a player for the ball. It used to drive me mad, it always felt like we were two defenders short. Marking an obeject that won’t actively put the ball in the net while leaving their attackers free!
To be fair I always used to do that as well, but I always played full-back and had been told by every manager I ever played under that I was to take the post!
All well and good but what tweak prevents the inherent problem with zonal marking that you mention? The guy having an advantage with an 8 yard run up verses a zonal marker?
I don't know if zonal marking is an issue for other teams, but for us, it certainly is and if it's not rectified we are going to continue to concede week in week out because of it. I thought at first it was the players fault but after lining up the same way week in week out, it's becoming clear that it's a coaching issue, and that whoever has decided to implement zonal marking (Guessing it's Silva) doesn't really know what they're doing. Personally I'd switch back to man marking for the rest of the season and if they wish to persist with zonal marking then they need to dedicate enough time to it over the Summer break and get someone in who actually knows what they're doing, as it's quite clear Silva and Co don't.
I go into more detail here: http://www.wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/is-marco-silva-all-that.53630/page-2 But essentially better shape. One single line invites runners and will cause. Doing something like staggering the lines will make it harder for runners to attack the key areas.
Do you have any stats on how many goals conceded from corners have been scored at the near and/or far post ? I would guess there are a significant number. Kabasele wouldnt have scored at Everton had there been someone defending the post!
Warrington, you do realise that guarding a post isn't man marking, don't you? They're protecting a zone.
Afraid not, I only track teams efficiency. Based on what I've seen though there's no area that seems to generate more goals than others.
I don’t really understand zonal marking , but every time we let a goal in from a corner the commentator blames our zonal marking - this happens a lot
I think it's the old-school way of defending corners. Full backs on posts as they're likely to be smaller than the CBs (so less aerially gifted) and can get back into position quicker than anyone else if they're on the posts
Jumpers for goalposts? Rush goalie? Two at the back, three in the middle, four up front, one's gone home for his tea. Beans on toast? Possibly, don't quote me on that. Marvellous.
Think your right. Funny how people think that shorter players a less a aerially gifted. Some of the best headers I’ve played with and against were midfielders who where slightly shorter. I’ve not 6’ plus defenders Barely jump and let the ball skid off there head!
With all 11 players defending? I agree with having men on the posts, but I think a zonal marking system (that works reasonably well) is obviously better for counter attacking. How many players would you leave up top?
Catching up on a few threads this evening and just read your post on another thread analysing the Stoke corner, very good. How do we start up a petition to get you in front of Marco for an hour and let you sell yourself from there?
Haha either am I! But by old-school I essentially mean Sunday League as that's how it' still done now. Yes smaller players aren't necessarily worse in the air, but that's one of the many stereotypes that still haunt the game sadly..
Whenever our team had a corner, I would always go and stand on the post with one of the full backs. The vast majority of times, no-one ever came to mark me as it looked like I was already marked by the guy on the post, so I would drift away as the kicker came up and get right in front of the goalkeeper with no defender blocking me. You can have that little gem for free to pass onto Leyton Orient.
Was reading with interest until I came to the irrelevant, pointless and self regarding Brexit comment.
How long has Silva been here? Could it be that this zonal marking thing is just one of those things that is going to take time? He's made huge improvements in a lot of areas very quickly, (and I say that as someone who believes he's an overrated foreign ponce) so maybe we should give him a break and accept that some aspects of play are going to be a work in progress at this stage of his tenure?
We need someone like Big Sam to coach the players on real football stuff, like corners and let Silva concentrate on teaching them to dive and gesticulate emphatically at the ref.
Wasn't meant as a political dig at anyone who did vote for brexit, more of a dig at the stereotypical "yer da" (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Yer da) types in football. Sorry!
Full marks for the mea culpa, just a pity to have accompanied it with that nonsense from UD, which if not aimed at the ‘pale, male, stale’ stereotype but at an ethnic minority would have accusations of racism flying all over the place.
