Will he be here next season?

  1. Yes. In the Championship

    0 vote(s)
  2. Yes. In the EPL

    16 vote(s)
  3. No. We will go up and ditch him

    37 vote(s)
  4. No. We give him the boot for overseeing a calamitous end to the season.

    2 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I thought it was the opposite and they low balled him which made it impossible for him to stay on. I think if they’d really wanted him to stay on then he would’ve ended up staying on.
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  2. BigRossLittleRoss

    BigRossLittleRoss First Team

    Is that not the graphic for Barnsley managers alone ?
  3. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    It's mostly practical
  4. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    If we get promoted, to then dismiss Muñoz in the same manner as Joka would be pretty despicable.

    We'd deserve all the vitriol the media and other clubs throw at us.

    I don't think it will come to this though. I suspect he will be given a chance next season, regardless of what happens this season.
  5. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    But not keeping Joka on was ultimately proven to be the right decision, so with that in mind why would Munoz be kept on?

    What is different this time around? Other than Gino having the scare of his life being relegated, losing loads of money and being set back several years in terms of player recruitment?

    My hunch is he’ll actually go the complete opposite and finally fork out for a properly qualified manager.
    Chumlax likes this.
  6. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Not sure that that changes my point. I'm sure it's useful for some people, it's more the mandating of it that I think ridiculous.
  7. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    Dismissing Joka may have proved to be the right decision business-wise, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have kept us up. Of course, we may have crashed and burned.. we'll never know.

    Giving him a shot at managing in the PL would have been morally the right thing to do.

    I know that football has no morals but that doesn't make it right, and it won't make it right if Muñoz is dismissed.

    If Gino is honest with himself, I think he'll admit we got relegated because he made some horrendous decisions from the top down.

    IMO, if he goes and does the same thing again and dismisses Muñoz, in my mind it'll prove that he's learnt nothing.

    If this happens, I suspect the majority of Watford fans would go along with it. I also suspect I'd become even less enthused about Watford.
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    But on the other hand sentiment is what has got us where we are with someone like Troy. Sentiment is what got us where we ended up with Javi, sentiment kept Javi in a job longer than most Watford managers under Gino which was one contributor to our relegation.

    I think there is a big difference between masterminding victories over teams who you have to a man, better players than, compared to trying to mastermind victories against teams that have better players than you in pretty much every position.

    Much was made on the weekend about how Warnock was a vastly experienced championship manager and hence knew exactly how to nullify us as a means to justify the result and the performance, so how does that work against better managers than Warnock who have better players at their disposal? Nuno, Bielsa, Hodgson? All better managers than Warnock who’ll all have better players than we will.

    I think that’s how Gino will see it and he won’t let sentiment get in the way of any decision he makes. As I mentioned above, surely he only appointed Munoz on the basis he fully expected and believed he’d get us promoted, otherwise why did he appoint him? So on that basis it’s not like if we get promoted Gino will have been handed an unexpected dilemma. Promotion was the expectation and if promotion is the outcome it won’t have any influence on who is the manager next season. I’d be absolutely shocked and amazed that if we are promoted, our next manager isn’t already decided and lined up.
    Chumlax likes this.
  9. LouOrns

    LouOrns Academy Graduate

    I posed this question on Twitter and Roy Moore replied saying he won’t be the head coach next season but will be at the club
  10. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn First Year Pro

    The graphic highlights Barnsley managers but includes all Championship managers since 2015. The graphic’s producer tweeted that Xisco was the one I have circled and that Bielsa is the other dot with xPTS per game of over 2.0
    BigRossLittleRoss likes this.
  11. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    I think that's debatable. Yes we had a poor start to the season but there were many reasons we did so poorly and the players then have to take their fair share of the blame.

    Pozzo has a business to run. If he feels we'd be better served by going with another manager, he has every right to make that decision.

    I know that something I (and others) have been crying out for over the last few seasons is a bit of continuity. If the managerial merry-go-round comes into town again this summer, I really don't think I can in good conscience go back to the Vic, regardless of the league we're in. Perhaps I'll follow non-league instead (something with a bit more soul!)

    There is a lot that I dislike about the PL and the way that Pozzo runs the club (not to say he hasn't done a great job in certain areas though).

    Personally, I'm not prepared to sweep everything under the carpet if we go back up. I'd like to see some sort of continuity. I doubt I'll get that and my passion for the club will continue to wane.
  12. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    I think you’re going to be disappointed. I can’t see Gino giving the keys to a premier league club to such an inexperienced manager.

    The bit about Javi is debatable, but based on our record for hiring and firing, do you honestly think sacking Javi at the end of the season didn’t cross Gino’s mind at least once? I’d be inclined to think it did, and whatever subsequent bad mistakes were made last season, the bad form spilling over from the previous season will surely have made Gino question the decision not to have done it earlier.
  13. foxywfc

    foxywfc Reservist

    You can fail these courses

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  14. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    My assistant manager constantly fails them on FM, the dozy ****
  15. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    I can't be disappointed by something that, if I am brutally honest to myself about, I half expect to happen.

    I'm not that bothered though. I'm just so tired of having to continually defend Watford against friends and colleagues of mine who criticise our club for getting rid of another manager.

    It's tiring enough at the best of times but it's extra tiring when you don't quite believe the shpeal you're coming out with.

    It's a shame that so many Watford fans are willing to turn a blind eye to the lack of continuity, but the Premier League is everything isn't it? I mean, it's the best leave in the world, right? Nothing else matters eh?
    a19tgg likes this.
  16. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    I'm convinced they had it in their minds, I think the only thing that made them hesitate was the famous semi-final win. If that didn't happen, I'm sure we would have sacked Javi in the summer, enraged many (including many of us), but, perhaps crucially, we would have had an opportunity to appoint a manager who could have turned it around rather than panic and go down the QSF path

    (Not necessarily suggesting we should have sacked Javi that summer, but it almost certainly would have been better to sack him then than 4 games into the new season, the whole fiasco made us look a bit clueless)
  17. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn First Year Pro

    Certainly. And I don’t think it’s happened in the last ten years or so.
    Gareth Southgate (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/23/newsstory.sport3) and Avram Grant (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...oaching-badges-Ill-remain-charge-Chelsea.html) are probably the two most prominent examples but both some time ago. A lot of the older managers who held long-term roles were also grandfathered in a bit if I recall correctly.

    This is certainly a situation unprecedented in recent years. But I think it would be pretty harsh and nonsensical for the PL to force a club to part ways (and potentially leave them on the hook for compensation) with a manager who got them promoted. It would also yield some pretty bad press, I’d imagine. If we want dispensation, we’ll get it. Keeping a manager without badges is obviously a different kettle of fish from getting approval to appoint a manager without badges.
  18. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    I'd be amazed if he stayed. Jokanovic was absolutely brilliant and he got the boot.

    I think he would need to somehow win the league to keep his position.
  19. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    That’s exactly what I think, in terms of the cup final, and I also agree that I’m not saying we should’ve sacked him as given what he did in reaching the cup final, that deserved to be taken into account.... However, I don’t think Gino will see it that way, he’ll think that if it crossed his mind, but the cup final was a mitigating factor in not sacking him, then ultimately he was wrong in not sacking him and should’ve just gone with his instincts and not let sentiment get in the way.

    That’s why I think whatever Munoz does this season, if we’re promoted he won’t let the promotion and the nature of the promotion dictate any decision.
  20. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    I get and don't disagree with your overall point, though I did not/do not vote the same way on Munoz's fate - I was aware that Southgate was the last, but even in he and Grant's cases, neither had got their team promoted, they were just allowed to take the role, essentially. If anything in that went either way, I don't necessarily think it would be more of a positive to have been there for half a season already and changed divisions, but that's total conjecture, of course.

    I'm personally not entirely sure the idea of the COVID excuse would be readily accepted, either, in large part because even if he had started when he arrived he would still have been nowhere near completing/achieving it by the time it was 'required'.
  21. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    This is going a little bit off on a tangent and probably for another thread, but this is why I don’t like the whole binary COG/BW and people jumping on each other to score points when things swing one way or the other. Even when we have success people (like yourself) still have the right to question how the club is run, and to dislike it.
  22. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    I'm sure you can. And then you go back, pay some more money and pass it. There are so many utterly dreadful coaches that have obviously passed through these courses but don't even have a basic level of competence.
  23. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    There is a counter argument to all this, in that possibly the best way to reward and honour Munoz if he gets us promoted is to not keep him on, rather than inevitably sacking him at some point in October, with the achievement a distant memory.
    Ybotcoombes likes this.
  24. El distraído

    El distraído Johnny Foreigner

    For what it's worth, I respect your opinion. I just can't go along with it. I just think it's a combination of the way Watford is run these days and the problem I have with football in general.

    On a separate note, yours is a fair point and one I completely agree with. Too often, these debate turn sour and then the name calling starts.

    I don't get why everyone can't have a reasonable debate then go their separate ways. I bet you that if everyone here were in a room together, they'd be a little more civil.

    Oh and I have no idea what a COG or a BW is haha.
  25. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn First Year Pro

    I agree that the COVID excuse looks woolly but I do think there’s a huge difference between a club turning round to the PL and saying “we’d like to appoint this coach, he doesn’t have the badges but can you do us a solid so we don’t have to make a more expensive external appointment” (as in the case of Southgate and Grant) and the PL turning round to a club and saying “sorry but you have to get rid of your current manager who just got you promoted (and pay him compensation) because we have this rule that we’ve never actually applied previously.”

    What’s more, who would be willing to spend more litigating this issue: us to keep Muñoz should we decide that’s the way forward, or the PL to ensure this rule is enforced? I’d imagine it would be us.
  26. LeedsOrn

    LeedsOrn First Year Pro

    Do you think he’s heard something? Can imagine Xisco would only be willing to take a demotion if he has worked with the new guy in some way before - which would surely only be Benitez.
  27. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    This is all very well, but the question is about Xisco Munoz, not Roy Moore!
  28. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Would be gutted if we go up and get rid of him completely, I'm not completely sold on him yet as a manager, but he's young and there's clearly something to work with, I think bringing in someone more experienced would be the way to go
    Supertommymooney and foxywfc like this.
  29. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    I wouldn't, but that just goes to the heart of our/anyone's differing/specific answer to the poll at the top of the thread, if you get me!
    LeedsOrn likes this.
  30. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I wonder if there is a restraint of trade case to be made somewhere in this? Requiring the UEFA badges flat out locks people out from being able to apply for certain positions. The Bosman ruling hinged on restraint of trade. Is there an argument to be made that entirely locking coaches without certifications out of certain leagues is not reasonable?

    We accept that doctors require years of study to qualify as practicing MDs, but that is a very complex and constantly evolving field with serious repercussions when mistakes are made.

    Can we honestly say that footballing coaching requires years and years of work taking UEFA courses before you're ready to coach at a top team? After all, most players have spent likely the best part of 3 decades being coached by the point that's even a possibility. They will have had a shed load of experience on the receiving end of it. If they're not capable of doing the job after 25+ years of practical application as a player, I can't see how attending a few years of courses is going to magically change anything. The courses might well make them better in some way, but that's a whole different argument to saying that the candidates wouldn't be capable of doing the job without the courses.
  31. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    No he will be gone as he apparently does not have the necessary coaching badges to be in charge of a PL club.

    However, if Xisco could persuade his mate Rafa Benitez, to come to Watford as our new head coach and keep him on as his assistant that might work.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 12:23 AM
  32. foxywfc

    foxywfc Reservist

    True. Lots more to it than just passing the course. Coaches could of got qualified years ago and as far as I’m aware they don’t need to refresh, so lots of coaches who are stuck in their ways. Good thing with Xisco he’s young fresh ideas and just doing the final course coming away with new ideas for the modern game.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  33. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    For what it’s worth also, it’s not necessarily my opinion, just what I think will happen and how Gino will see it, I might of course be wrong

    My own opinion is somewhere in the middle, I think it would be harsh, but equally I do think he’s obviously very inexperienced and next seasons challenge is a different animal entirely.

    I think one way to look at it is, imagine we just got freshly promoted and putting aside how we’d been promoted and by who, imagine we then appointed a manger with Munoz’s experience in Georgia who had then got a team promoted from serie B or la Segunda division. I’d imagine a lot of people would be questioning their experience and if they had enough to manage a club in the top tier of a major league with no prior experience of doing so, just a second tier promotion. Without the sentiment element most would probably feel it was the wrong appointment.
  34. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Cool...that means his mate Benitez will be in charge. Great stuff.
  35. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    The Xisco kid surely deserves a chance, Assuming we go up. He is getting the best out of the players, and what else can a coach do. If we sack another manager then anyone decent is going to avoid the job like the plague or insist on a longer contract

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