Why is Deeney STILL untouchable?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by NathWFC, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    It's 2019. It's absolutely beyond a joke at this point.

    His performances have rarely gotten beyond OK at any point in the past two years, and for the most part he is either completely anonymous, completely hopeless or a combination of the two, yet he seems to not only start every game but play (I use the term "play" loosely as he meanders around doing next to nothing most of the time) the full 90 minutes too.

    He encourages a horrible, hit and hope style of play where we whack endless long balls at "big Troy", who isn't actually that big and more often than not gets absolutely dominated. He has absolutely no pace, very little attacking movement, can't create his own chances and generally just gives the opposition very little to think about in almost every game he plays.

    Yes, he was good for us in the past, but it's over. It's been over for a long time. Please just go away.
     
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  2. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Blame the coach who picks him and wants to play the way that we do.
     
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  3. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    I do, but I also blame the useless lump himself for his complete inability to perform at this level. He probably has more power at the club than Gracia does anyway.
     
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  4. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well if only Success was any good or Okaka fit..

    Gracia doesn't seem to like Gray that much and GD turns up every so often when he likes .

    Reckon he is too scared to drop Deeney ..
     
  5. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Honestly Prodl up front would be as effective as Deeney. Regardless of our other poor options, there is no excuse for him to start and play 90 minutes every single ****ing game.
     
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  6. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    That's just a deflection of blame. Gracia doesn't see it the same as you. He wants to play him and does.

    I refuse to believe that in this day and age a coach is scared to drop a player.
     
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I do think the vast majority of balls to Deeney these days are aimed at his head rather than feet, which necessarily have a high margin of error. The responsibility for this should be shared by the players, who could look for more incisive lower passes, and the coach, who should be encouraging them to do so. We know from past experience that he has the ability to link well with other strikers with his back to goal laying the ball off, but you rarely see that in Watford’s play at the moment.
     
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  8. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    The important bit is in bold. He is finished. Past his prime. Done. The past is irrelevant.
     
  9. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain


    Yes true - Gray is more likely to score and GD can produce something which Deeney won't.

    Never seems to win a header or hold off anyone .
     
  10. Next year he'll get 20 for us in the championship
     
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  11. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    In this moment?
     
  12. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    He isn't untouchable. He just needs to up his game or settle for a more bench sub role.

    He probably should of gone to Everton or Leicester when they were sniffing around. I think he can deliver on the pitch, but his selection by Javi is a bit much.
     
  13. Whippendell Woods

    Whippendell Woods Squad Player

    Could he do a Paul Warhurst and be converted into a decent centre back?
     
  14. vic-rijrode

    vic-rijrode First Year Pro

    Marcus Gayle anyone?
     
  15. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Compare Deeney's movement to that of other bigger, slower strikers and it explains a lot. Glenn Murray last week was moving laterally across our back four and looking to bend runs into the channels despite not being pacy. Ashley Barnes and Chris Wood today were always on the move against Arsenal today, looking to get in between the full backs and the centre backs. This means defenders are constantly having to think about whether to follow them, pass them on to another player, being turned back to face their own goal.

    Deeney never does any of this, he shuffles about the centre circle, looking for a ball to come to him, how often do we see him chasing a ball outside the width of the penalty box? The centre backs are never disrupted and they also know he can't run in behind as he has no pace. They just have to stick tight to him and win the physical battle and that's it, job done, get your cigars out. Because they know he's never on the move, the defence doesn't get moved about or pushed back, so there is less space for any of our midfielders, so they are generally marked. If you then leave our centre backs alone with the ball, knowing they're not good enough to bring it out of defence then they just pass it sideways until the inevitable long ball to Deeney who tries to win it from a standing start. Rinse and repeat.

    We've had four different coaches in the Premier League, yet for four seasons we have mainly been a direct team. The only time we consistently tried to play more passing football was under Silva... and that was the only time Deeney was out of the starting line up for any length of time.
     
  16. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Wasn't that when he was injured or banned ?!
     
  17. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    Contributes nothing while demanding we play a style of football that doesn’t suit anyone else in the team or even Deeney himself 9/10 games.
     
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Eats cakes, gets pissed and can't play football.
     
  19. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    We need a better option than Deeney up front, but the truth is who is clearly better right now? I would probably go with Gray, but all his best performances have been from the bench. Welbeck is better than Gray and Deeney, but isn’t match fit, and didn’t look an upgrade today. I agree with the criticisms of Deeney, but the other options right now are no better. I think we are all hoping that Wellbeck gets up to speed asap
     
  20. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Source?
     
  21. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Sauce?
     
  22. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    Well I bloody well hope he won't be untouchable once Welbeck is fully fit
     
  23. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    We'll certainly never progress until Deeney is not 'the main man' whether he's here or not, and our attack is not utterly hamstrung by being focused around him no matter what, at the expense of other more talented players in other positions.

    Our formation is archaic and predictable, but we have no choice because it has to accommodate his very limited skillset, whilst at the same time being quite poor at the archaic, limited football the likes of Burnley have turned into their greatest strength thanks to Deeney's actual weakness when it comes to the key tenets of that play; aerial dominance, physical superiority and hold up play/bringing the ball down.

    Troy might actually just be the ultimate posterboy; the transcendent form of the 'too good for the Championship, not good enough for the Prem' player, because we saw back in the Champ what he really is and we've subsequently collectively deluded ourselves.

    He's not a target man, he's not a centre forward; he's purely an all action striker. At that level, he's strong enough, and he's mobile enough, and he's a good enough finisher. At this level, his relative skill in all of those areas is exposed for what it really is, and to compensate, this shared mythology of him as a battling target man has been invented to paper over the cracks, just because he's burly/a stone overweight (delete as time appropriate).

    The most appropriate comparison really is Jonathan Walters for Stoke, and the role he fulfilled year on year as they established themselves in the prem. Unfortunately, his status has meant we can't recognise his diminished capacity and utilise him accordingly; he's still the first name on the teamsheet regardless of impact.

    It's not entirely his fault; the enormous relative failure of the record signing of Gray as a successor to take over his role on the pitch and become our main goal threat has led both to us continuing to have to rely on Deeney as a serious option and to having no space or finances for a true replacement/successor in the striking department, hence we watch another window go by with no true legitimate (as of yet, jury is obviously still out on chalky bones DWelbz) competitor brought in to challenge for their position or their improvement.

    It's increasingly sad to watch, and he'll always be a Watford legend, but the way he continuously winds down in front of our eyes threatens to tarnish his legacy as each game goes by, and costs us in a real sense on the pitch.
     
  24. Rontaylor

    Rontaylor Reservist

    I wonder what kind of influence Deeney is with rest of team - no evidence but I just have a gut feeling that he may be disruptive of coach's authority.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  25. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Not only does Troy Deeney run the club, he also runs the Watford streets.
     
    RookeryDad likes this.
  26. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Warhurst was a defender converted to a striker.
     
  27. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It has been clear for 3 years that Deeney has been overweight too often, that he is not mobile enough for a forward, and just does not produce enough benefit to warrant his place in our team.

    It seems that he is almost untouchable in reality as he is on here. On this forum, criticism of him has been followed by the usual group with sarcasm and "How dare you criticise the legend!" type of post.

    Well, "the legend" has been taking the piss out of us for several years. Not being a technically good footballer shouldn't attract too much criticism as players can be worth their place for other reasons, but our club captain coming back in August 17, totally unfit and overweight as he earned £70k a week (or whatever it is) was a disgrace. That wasn't a spur of the moment mistake, or an aberration, it showed continued disrespect for his position, the club and the fans. And then putting in what looks like 30% effort displays with minimal contribution, far too often over the past few years, is unforgivable.

    I am not keen on footballers being given "legendary" status in the first place. Some think Tommy Mooney deserves that accolade. I am not sure about that, but he is far more worthy than Deeney, in my opinion, as we all knew Tommy was making the most of his limited ability, by putting 100% into every single game for the cause. I think Deeney has done that maybe a handful of occasions, in the last few years. That just isn't good enough.

    He has been found out at this level. He rarely usefully wins a header, he doesn't score enough goals, he doesn't create enough chances, and he doesn't seem to motivate as a Captain. I actually think that he motivates the opposition more than his own team with his stupid comments and attitude.

    As SLB says in his excellent post above, and I've been saying for a while now, Deeney is far too predictable and ponderous in his movement. Not only does he not offer much of a goal threat, he doesn't even make defenders think, they don't need to make decisions, as he rarely makes any runs to stretch them. He trots about, and then moans when he doesn't get the ball.

    He is actually lazy and selfish in his movement. It is almost like playing with 10 men.

    I honestly think that any of our alternatives would be better in terms of the the problems they would cause the opposition defence.
     
  28. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    Welbeck fit can replace him. In a one or two up front probably

    Gray needs a different style of play and a partner. Not sure how Gray and Gerry might work together.
     
  29. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well Gray will be good if fead the ball when in front of goal from someone who can hold the ball up and play him in .

    I do think the Pozzos were hoping Succrss would be the long term replacemt in terms of size and style .
     
  30. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    To be fair, there's not been much of that at all recently.
     
  31. TripleH

    TripleH Academy Graduate

    I feel he should be an impact player off the bench unless the stats prove otherwise, due to his limitations mentioned already, thought we played well with Success in front of a five on several occasions last year, notably in the cup games away.

    Anyone know Deeney's scored/assists stats for the previous premier league seasons? You'd expect both to be close to double figures for a whole season but I doubt if they are
     
  32. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Nobody would claim that he's Johan Cruyff, but given his contribution over the last 10 (?) years and the fact that we still play better when he is in the team, I just don't get the level of anti-Deeney sentiment expressed on this forum
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  33. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Do we only play better when he’s in the team because when he’s not, we still play a style designed to suit him and not the player taking his place?
     
  34. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Given that his critics would say he's little more than an agricultural old-fashioned forward, that suggests that we play a direct style to suit his physical strength. And I don't think that is the case.
     
  35. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    "We play better with Deeney in the team" is a load of balls. He's never out of the team long enough for that to truly be established, and with the signings of Sarr and Welbeck it becomes even less proven as we now have more options.

    4-4-2/4-2-2-2 no longer fits the squad we have here nor does it play to the strengths of some of our better players - the only person it really suits is Deeney - and he is the main reason we are persisting with it.

    In 2019 the man does nothing but hold us back on the pitch and tactically, and has become a big (fat) barrier to our progression as a team.
     
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