Why Can't We Perform On The Road?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Hogg-DEENEY!!!, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    First of all, it's not all doom and gloom, we did yet again miss a golden opportunity to go top, but are still in a decent position if we finally get going. Still, just 3 goals and 8 points from 8 away games this season, what gives? How can we be picking up so many points at home yet we just scrape by away? Is it mostly on Ivic? Do the players just have a mental block (2 away wins all calendar year and just one since January at bottom of the Championship Wayne Rooney's Derby County)? Are we planning to crank it up once the big guns are back? Or are we simply not as good a team as many of us think, and will fall down the table eventually if/when the home form falters?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
  2. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    I dunno. Its a mystery at the minute.
    One would hope it is temporary.
     
  3. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Maybe just not set up or allowed to attack more and settle into defensive mode?
     
  4. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Literally no good reason.
     
  5. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    I have to agree 19tgg, I'm at a loss to explain it too :confused:
     
  6. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    Is it because we struggle to break down teams who park the bus against us?
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  7. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I would agree, but then wouldn’t the be more inclined to do that away from home?
     
    domthehornet likes this.
  8. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Why don't we do it on the road?
    Why don't we do it on the road?
    Why don't we do it on the road?
    Why don't we do it on the road?
    No one will be watching us
    Why don't we do it on the road?
    Cos Ivic is a *****.

    Paul McCartney, 1968
     
    Ghost of Barry Endean likes this.
  9. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    Personally I think it must be Ivic's instructions to the players.

    What was noticeable last night was the inclination to pass back or sideways to keep possession rather than push forward. The few times we upped the pace and someone drove on with the ball, or we made some quick passing moves in their half, Forest looked rattled.

    I think cautious, defensive, tactics are ok against dangerous teams but Forest looked very ordinary and lacking in confidence.

    I think we need to have the attitude that the "big 6" have in the EPL. We should be looking to win against everyone, home and away, with few exceptions. We need to be more positive even if it ends up costing us a few games.

    A win and a loss away from home gives us more points than two draws.

    I'm not convinced Ivic will ever see it that way though.
     
  10. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Ironically I think a lot of the teams who have come to Vicarage Road have given it more of a go than some of the teams we've faced away from home--who have we faced this who have shut up shop against us at home? (Obviously it helps that we've got some early goals at home as well)
     
  11. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    Maybe teams see us as a scalp in this league and are a bit more conservative against us.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  13. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    It's nothing new, we've won 3 of our last 27 league away games.
     
  14. hambledonhornet

    hambledonhornet Academy Graduate

    So many poor passes last night don’t help
     
    Hogg-DEENEY!!! likes this.
  15. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    It's clear to me that it's not solely down to Ivic, even if he does tell them to be more conservative away from home
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  16. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I believe we have two games in a row now, if we don’t win both then we need to take a drastically different approach to away games if we actually want promotion.
     
  17. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Er....yes?
     
  18. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    I heard a rumour we actually have over 20 games in a row coming up. Seems an awful lot.
     
  19. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Sorry, meant home games
     
    Forzainglese likes this.
  20. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Source?
     
  21. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    If Forest see Watford as a scalp, then how the mighty have fallen.

    Having no fans at the stadiums is a huge advantage for away sides but it's something we've failed to take advantage of.

    Our good fortune at home is keeping Ivic in a job. If our home form was anything like the away then he'd already be long gone.

    Our bad away form has to be down to a combination of what Ivic asks his team to do and the mental fragility that has plagued Watford players for many years. This season there is very little difference between home and away, but for Watford it appears to make a massive difference, and that's illogical.

    To put our away form into perspective, we've only played 2 teams in the top half of the table and 4 of the 8 away matches have been against sides currently occupying the bottom four. In other words, we've had an easy run away from home.

    What's more likely to happen, our home form is achieved in the away games or the away form will leak into the home performances?

    Right now, I think results have been very kind to us at home. We've only really deserved to beat Luton and Preston from our 7 home games, yet we've won 6 out of 7. If you're honest, we've not played anywhere near well enough to have got that record, but key moments have generally gone our way at vital times.

    From what I've seen of Watford this season, they have largely underachieved. I thought maybe the formation change and previous two performances have pointed us in an upward direction, but last night it all came crushing down again with yet another timid on-the-road performance.

    Sure, things will be better with Sema, Capoue and especially Hughes in the side. I think our midfield will be a lot stronger, and that should elevate the entire side. However, I don't see Watford as being good enough to get promoted based on their average performance so far. They are underachieving and performances should be a lot better by now. Watford have got to improve by quite a margin if they are to go up, and I'd be quite concerned if we fail to take at least 4 points from the next two games.
     
  22. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

    I agree. But the danger is exacerbated when the poor pass is made in our own half.

    I don't think Forest pressed very well but they still managed to win the ball in dangerous positions when, after several non-effective passes, we eventually made a mistake.

    I think if we moved the ball quicker and more directly, especially when an opposition attack breaks down and they are out of position, would be far more effective.

    Too often we just passed the ball around, slowly, in our own half while they got into a solid defensive shape and waited for our inevitable missed pass. That's not going to win many games imo.
     
  23. Its not the whole answer, but teams set up to be solid, defensive, and hit us on the break. We have creative players capable of breaking down a parked bus - Sarr, Sema, Quinna, Pedro - but they are inconsistent. The player we miss most is Del.

    We don't help ourselves by transitioning at snail speed, allowing the opposition to get back into their defensive parked bus.

    I’m not too down after last night as we tried to be positive.
     
  24. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Cardiff is winnable but tough, they are in form. Rotherham is a side that is very inconsistent with results and can be hard to beat (see Middlesbrough). Ironically, our next away game is
    Birmingham - a side low on confidence, hardly score and struggle for any sort of form. Even if we beat both Cardiff and Rotherham, do you really expect anything more than a point at
    St Andrews? I don't. I do feel it is the player's lack of motivation, but then again Ivic keeps saying "I am unhappy with the performance overall". I still have a nagging suspicion that is
    glossing over his actual tactics of what he says pre game.

    Sarr couldn't give a crap last night, and I do see a lack of motivation especially in our more flair players. I sort of miss Doucoure' powering through the midfield, but Chalobah might as well
    of stayed on the coach for all he did overall. Such a timid player, I wonder what he might of been like had that injury never happened.
     
  25. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    The biggest culprit of poor passing is Chalobah. He gives the ball away so often, even when he's not under pressure. He really needs to work on spotting a pass and executing it correctly.

    There were others though. Pedro had good opportunities to play a good final ball in but he's overhitting it. Kabasele often shanks one with no one around him, and Foster is always going to do the odd flub.

    I get players can't pass when they are under pressure, but very often they mess up when they're not being pressed. That's just down to technique......or rather lack of it. Gray is another who is just woeful at passing the ball. He's by far the worst player at the club when it comes to being unable to make a basic, simple pass.

    So often we're happy to receive the ball deep and play it backwards or across the field. Playing in front of the opposition, retaining possession, but not hurting them. It's frustrating to see us play in this way, especially as we have a squad that's capable of so much more.
     
  26. Malteser2

    Malteser2 Reservist

    It’s not temporary though. It dates back to the start of the calendar year. We’ve only won twice away in 2020.

    After beating Bournemouth, on the 12th January, we failed to win another away match in the PL. We followed up that victory by losing to Villa in a game you could argue ultimately sealed our fate, got a point at Brighton and then lost the next five either side of lockdown.

    So in the last 7 away matches we played as a PL team (including four with no crowds), we took 1 point. We scored 5 goals in that run.

    Add that in to this season, that becomes 9 points in 15 matches. 9 points from a possible 45.

    And goals scored...EIGHT in 15 matches.

    We also failed to win any of our cup matches on the road in 2020, losing at Tranmere and Newport and drawing at Oxford, then winning the shoot out.

    It’s the worst prolonged run I can ever remember.

    We were awful on the road under Gracia when he first came, but that was just a few months and we immediately corrected it by winning our first two away matches of his full season.
     
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  27. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Actually that's not quite right. If you remember, the scheduled Spurs away game was switched because their new ground wasn't ready, so three of the four wins that began that season were at home. The second away game was the 1-1 draw at Fulham.
     
  28. ITK platypus

    ITK platypus Squad Player

    Does anyone know if this is a general trend across other teams? If so, perhaps the whole COVID bubble the team are probably trapped in for the duration of the trip probably doesn't help.

    But generally I think we are just playing conservatively away from home, which seems unnecessary. I do think Ivic will eventually realise this, but it remains to be proven.
     
  29. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Could it be that the poorer teams are more frightened, unjustifiably, of Watford and so they are the ones more likely to play for a draw at home, which we don't seem to be able to cope with?

    Having said that, the main frustration from last night was that almost the whole game was played at jogging pace which allowed Forest to always be back in their defensive formation. It was crying out for a faster movement of the ball and for someone to run with it at pace when a space opened up and we have several players who can do that. What made things even worse though was the quality of crossing when the opportunity arose, either from open play or restarts. 90% of crosses were way overhit and gave the mean in the box no chance.
    To me the Watford players have a, possibly unconscious, mindset that they are better than the opposition (which, broadly, they probably are) and all they have to do is keep possession of the ball, knock it around a bit and chances to score will materialise. Perhaps they have failed to recognise the tenacity of Championship teams but it's certainly not working and I'm not convinced it's all down to Ivic.
     
    Forzainglese likes this.
  30. goatswilly

    goatswilly Academy Graduate

    The only way we will know the answer for sure if it is Ivic's instructions is for someone to ask him directly during the next pre-match Conference.

    To me, it seems it is an instruction to the players to be cautious away from home.

    In every game away from home this season, we have seen a break on only for the player in control of the ball Stop, put his foot on the ball and pass it backwards stopping any flow on the break we had.

    Seems pretty clear to me where this instruction came from.
     
    Chumlax, Jumbolina and sydney_horn like this.
  31. Abdi

    Abdi Academy Graduate

    Not exactly a new phenomenon, we've been **** away from home since 1881 if I recall correctly.
     
  32. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    The problem is we always start brightly, lots of possession but no end product whilst the opposition are cautious and sit back expecting an onslaught.

    By half time when they realise that’s all we’ve got they start to push forward more and take more risks themselves, we retreat into ourselves more and more and we end the game hanging on.

    We kind of play positively in the most negative way possible then struggle more and more to change that mindset as the opposition gain more confidence.
     
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  33. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    It’s lucky we consistently field highly weakened teams in the cups so that we can deliver these stellar league performances I must say.
     
  34. Malteser2

    Malteser2 Reservist

    Willis, we won our first two away matches of Gracia’s full season..you’re right about the league results but I was including cups and we won 2-0 at Reading.
     
  35. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Is King Ken right or left footed? I’d be tempted to drop Sarr and put him there instead. Sarr should be a match winner and should help us stretch the opposition, but he’s not. I watched him quite a lot yesterday and most of the time he’s static on the half way line, he provided no threat because he barely makes any runs in behind. We need to give the opposition something to think about and at the moment we just haven’t got it in the team while he’s playing like he is.
     

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