West Ham 2-0 Watford FC - 10/02/2018

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by domthehornet, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Ok, when I say "everyone" I don't mean every living being on the planet, but a lot of people were raising eyebrows over the size of the reported fee. I remember TalkSport really going to town over it. I remember Durham saying something like "£18 million for Gray...really!!" and Darren Gough falling off his chair laughing. A lot of pundits were saying it was a surprisingly high fee as well at the time.
     
  2. Ray Knight

    Ray Knight First Year Pro

    Totally agree. Can't judge Vydra on his record with WBA. He was ill-used and rarely started by Steve Clarke. If he was supported by our current team or playing with Deeney he would score in the EPL. I haven't seen Gray hit ANY shot let alone score a goal that matches Vydra. Might have done it for Burnley but that does us no good.
     
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I totally agree with you that signing a good effective striker is extremely difficult, but did the players we had in the first place need replacing? Deeney stayed, Ighalo was a revelation before levelling off, Vydra was young and always had a lot of potential. Did we really need to sell these players? Look at what we signed to replace them.

    My view is keep what we've got unless we can find a significant upgrade, which we have not done.

    You shouldn't so dismissive over what type of player Watford can attract. Who would have thought a player like Duelofeu would swap Barcelona for Watford, for example?
     
    Malteser likes this.
  4. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Hence him not playing. No play no chance of missing, i mean scoring a goal.
     
  5. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Vydra wasn't a team player for us on and off the pitch. Maybe he has grown up now since then but I remember him being made to smile after he scored a goal as he was generally a bit of a moody diva. His agent was a bit of a prat too.

    Would I have him back regardless. Absolutely!
     
  6. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Potential, but potential that Vydra has yet to fulfil.

    Remember that prior to his respectable 16 goals this season, he managed 8 in 64 games. I feel the club took a gamble that he wouldn't progress, and I don't think you can say they are wrong. Same goes with FF

    What's telling for me is that he's not been picked up by a Premiership side, or picked for the Czech side. If he's that good, somebody would have taken a gamble
     
  7. Roger Irrelevant

    Roger Irrelevant Reservist

    I doubt half our squad could. Especially as it was his weaker foot.
     
  8. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    It's not so much about the club being wrong to sell Vydra, Fessi and the like, but it's the players they signed to replace them. They were not an upgrade on what we had, in fact I believe we are worse off for it.

    This is why I've said we should have retained and maybe coached what we had, rather than spend good money on players like Okaka and Gray. One is a journeyman and the other never had the potential of Vydra in the first place. To think we sold Fessi for the same price of signing Sinclair, should sober anyone up.

    I'm not trying to knock the club, but they've made mistakes here, and it's got to be called as it is.

    The club are in massive credit overall for player trading, but they've continually got certain areas of the side wrong. LW, CB and CF positions mainly.
     
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I’m not actually a huge supporter of us playing 4-4-2 as I believe we are more potent with Deulofeu and Richarlison behind a central striker. When it works ie. Chelsea it’s devastating.

    But when discussing the various merits of our current strikers, it’s worth mentioning that by far and away in their careers, when Deeney and Gray have looked at their best is when they have played with a partner. Gray with Vokes and Deeney with Vydra/Ighalo. It’s just a shame that they squad we currently have built isn’t really geared to playing that way regularly. There’s something about them that makes me think they could play well together.
     
  10. jw-

    jw- Reservist

    I did not mean everyone either, but you try and paint an image as if there was a big joke at Watford's expense and the club were the only ones that couldn't see it. Citing TalkSport is not particularly convincing. At the time there were those who thought we paid too much, and there were those who questioned what Burnley were doing by selling him to us.

    As with most things the story is in shades of grey, not clear cut. Predictably, when the club is doing poorly the past gets dredged up just to throw more criticism. Next up will be the club not selling Ighalo early enough and losing 10million.
     
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I have no doubt the club thought it was doing a fantastic bit of business in signing Gray. I remember SD saying how surprised he was that Burnley were willing to sell to us, but that should have been a warning sign in itself though. Why would a rival be willing to sell their striker to us?

    I think the club got a bit excited over the deal and thought they were doing something others could not see. But unfortunately time has proved the club's view over Gray was misguided. I remember thinking to myself at the time, why have we signed Gray for £18m, but convinced myself the club must know something I don't, which is often the case of course. Sometimes a fan's view is the correct one and maybe the club were caught blind on this particular transfer.

    For the money we paid, he cannot be just a bit part player. He has to be an integral part of the team, and I can never see him being this.
     
  12. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Look at the market though. Giroud went to Chelsea for £18m, and he's only scored 4 times this season. You have to pay big money to buy strikers, its the reality of the ridiculous money floating around the Premiership.

    Resale value means he's zero risk. Any Championship side with a bit of money would happily take him off our hands. Also, if we get relegated, then we have a 20 goal striker ready to fire us back up.

    I do honestly feel though he will come good, he needs to be played regularly. Dropping him after scoring two on the bounce was inexplicable in my opinion, especially seeming Deeney doesn't do open play goals.
     
  13. jw-

    jw- Reservist

    Go back and read the Gray transfer thread and you'll find most of the fans, including yourself, thought there was merit in the deal.
     
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    I was really excited when we signed Gray, not least for the statement of intent and proven goals in the prem. But we haven't played to his strengths in our formation and like any striker he feeds off confidence. The high cost and being ex scum was always going to heap on more pressure.

    But I would much rather we had kept Vydra and given him a chance 2 years ago. He'd just scored the goal that won us promotion and signed a 5 year deal for **** sake. We could always have loaned him out or sold him in the Januray if it hadn't worked out. We effectively swapped him in the 25 for Oulare didn't we ?? He's still only 25, the same age as Doucoure, so hasn't peaked yet.
     
  15. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    What I remember from when we signed Gray was firstly the relief that we had signed a striker. What followed was optimism given he had performed okay so far in the PL with Burnley, the fact he was homegrown and would fit in well with the players we had. But it was by no means unanimous. The were equal amounts of concern that we had vastly overpaid and the warnings from Burnley fans about his ability to stay onside and poor first touch - we can’t say they were wrong so far.

    But outside of the walls of this forum and anyone who supports Watford, I would easily say that the general feeling amongst the media and other football fans was that whilst Gray was an okay signing, we had spent a fortune and wouldn’t be getting the required return. So there is merit in what HB1 is saying.
     
    Malteser likes this.
  16. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    I am sure the others - given the times when we shelled out for their services and the comparative finances of Watford FC then and now - represented even greater financial folly than the relatively modest (by the insane standards of the modern EPL) £18m we handed over to Burnley for Gray.
     
  17. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    [QUOTE="........ modest (by the insane standards of the modern EPL) £12.5m we handed over to Burnley for Gray.[/QUOTE]
    Corrected for you :)
     
  18. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Corrected for you :)[/QUOTE]

    Really??? There you go, HB1, he's a snip and represents excellent value for money
     
  19. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Supposedly £12.5m plus add ons which (unless very very very poorly drafted) are unlikley to come into effect. TBF I guess some may relate to "staying up" rather than Gray's personal contribution which i guess is probably 70/30 likely to happen ?
     
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Even at £12.5m, we've still overpaid.

    No other Premier league side would shell out big bucks on him, so you have to look at a money bags Championship side looking to invest in order to gain promotion. I would say you could probably get around £8m with some add-ons to bump up the price to around £10m max, if we wanted to sell.
     
  21. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Agreed, but he's definitely not 'probably the worst signing we've made in our history' as you said
     
  22. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    You're joking aren't you? Britt went for £15m, and he's never scored 20 goals in a Championship season. We'd easily make back what we paid for Gray
     
    Lloyd likes this.
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Football has a short memory. When Britt was sold he was scoring at a 1 in 2 ration in the league Middlesbrough had just been relegated to.

    I don't see Gray being looked at like this. People will see how he's struggling in the Premier league and will think he's lost a bit of his ability. The same can be said of Deeney.

    Top Championship sides are prepared to spend money, but only on a sure thing. I think Gray's potential has peaked with his transfer to Watford, and his next transfer I suspect will be for a smaller sum.

    I would be stunned if anyone offered us more than £10m for Gray, and would snap their arm off if they did.
     
  24. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Same amount we signed Karnesis for eh m8?
     
  25. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    It’s fair to say Gray has not scored enough goals for the transfer fee of £12m-£18m but who else should we have gone for that is in the same price bracket? I don’t believe we’ve seen the best of what he has to offer as I think he’s a player who thrives on confidence, much like Vydra, but every time he scores he gets dropped! The problem is, no matter how much you spend there is no guarantee of the player being a Success. If you look at our expensive buys, they don’t seem to be too successful. Bobby P, Success, Gray so maybe we should stick at looking for the bargains like Femenia or Chalobah.
     
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  26. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    Whilst I agree we could've spent the money more wisely, chances get missed by strikers often, they all do it if you analyse each and every game. Kane, Lukaku, Aguero, pretty much all of them. I bet you can pick out chances they missed too if you analyse every game they played. Gray scored against Southampton as well that started the fightback for a point that may be crucial come end of season.

    What I don't get about certain people on this forum (i'm not singling you out hornetboy on this by the way) is that even when Gray isn't playing they have a go at him saying how crap he is, yet Deeney is on the pitch not moving, or not able to keep up on a counter attack, and not showing anything up top in the game. Maybe these people are just stupid or living on Deeney past glories, who knows.
     
  27. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    Yes....I'm all for bargain signings. We've done pretty well when we've done this. This is why I find it hard to understand what made the club think Gray was worth braking the bank over. It's a strange one.
     
  28. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Come off it. When you are relegated, you look in the short term. You don't care whether a player has cut it in the Prem, you only care whether a player can score the 20 goals to get you back rolling in money again. He's 26, and scored 42 in 2 seasons in the Championship, there would be no shortage of takers
     
  29. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    Absolutely spot on, its good to see there is someone else who sees the reality.
     
  30. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I think a relegated club would more likely go for a player that is a regular scorer in the Championship than go for one that has clearly struggled for a couple of seasons in a higher league.

    I'm not saying Gray is rubbish and no club would want to sign him. I think plenty in the Championship would, but I don't think many, if any, would spend significantly over £10m for him. I just don't see it.
     
  31. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

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  32. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    He is a regular scorer in the Championship though, he's proven that. The fact he's not been playing there doesn't mean he's not able to do it again.

    The fee we paid is the going rate nowadays. Burnley replaced Gray by spending £15m on Chris Wood. Southampton spent £20m on Carrillo, £15m last season on Gabbiadini. Everton £25m on Tosun. Chelsea £18m on Giroud......
     
  33. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I was searching the internet earlier to try and find a way to work out what Ellington would have cost today in relation to what we paid for him back then. One method that somebody had come up with as a means to work such things out was the players cost as a percentage of revenue for that year. God knows what that was in 2007, but I’d hazard a guess it would be a lot more than £18m as a net percentage of our overall revenue now.
     
  34. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Who is suggesting deeney is any better? Everyone is saying gray AND deeney are utter *****. It doesnt make any difference which one of them starts, the end result is the same: an abysmal performance. On that basis, I'd rather start with deeney. As least he does a lot for the community and didnt play for luton.
     
  35. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I'm not saying £18.5m is a high price for a striker, but all those players you've listed are better than Gray. Giroud being the same price as Gray tells you something.
     

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