There's always an excuse though, and there's always a desperation to spin these things in some sort of made up positive light.
It’s a public forum. I can comment where I like as can you. As far as I can see, Nath is making the point that he feels we won’t go up with the standard of Udinese cast-offs we are getting so far - one of your rebuttals to that seems to be to list some players we got in a specific season where we also didn’t go up? If I see a debate between people going on and want to add to it, I will. As I would expect you to do in similar circumstances - it’s kind of a key function to a forum. It’s odd to somehow take offence to it. I’ll leave it there, as you were.
I wouldn't worry too much about pass completion from attacking players . Messi's are not good at Barca but the centre backs are great .
Personally I think there are some massive assumptions being made over the attitudes of our pampered prima donna's. Not just you Irish but lots of people seem to be getting emotional about this. Obviously not all the 17 missing from last night are being sold, we know some are injured and/or unavailable for fitness/health reasons. Of those we think are being sold and not playing because of it there will be a handful that have expressed a desire to leave, probably a few where the club are encouraging them to move on to get them off the books, and maybe some who would happily stay but the club have received interest on them that they may want to progress. I am fairly confident that if any of those players were selected they would happily play and put in a shift when they did, I don't believe any of them would refuse to play, they are footballers, it's what they do and they are being paid to do so if they are required. They are just not being called on. The fact they are not involved will be a combination of the club wanting to ensure they remain injury free, and so more saleable, and Ivic deciding that he wants to focus his efforts on the players that are likely to remain which I also understand, some of those could also go yet of course. I may be wrong but I doubt it.
I swore off football after the City game. I saw a team with no confidence versus a side with a 50+ aggregate against us in 6 years and looked in despair. The Premiership is a closed shop to all but a few, the rest hope they can muster 40 points and be happy. The longer you stay at the top of that glass ceiling, the more the fans become agitated. Whereas 8 years ago staying in the Championship would be success, we all now wanted Europe or top 10. The owners set their ambitions high and so did we. The big annoyance is that we were almost there. The worst thing that happened to us was a bunch of players stuck mentally on that Wembley pitch for 15 months. The basis was there to improve, but there needed to be a clear out to help Gracia move forward. Instead we surrounded quality with bang average. I don't blame them too much. Our financial situation now makes me feel we were punching above our weight for years. Their policy is to buy cheap and sell high, and we hardly ever sold over the years I think they tried to adapt their mantra but forgot that you needed to add players along the way. I think there's too much vitriol aimed in their direction when I believe they didn't know what to do when they got there. The same could be said about Udinese's brief Champions League stint Anyway, I was tempted to watch last night as despite being bereft of our quality players, I saw a cobbled together side and was intrigued at the outcome. The same deficiencies shone through from last year, a midfield who panics at the sight of pressure, and a defence that gives needless free kicks away at will. However, they grafted away against a Neil Warnock side that contained a who's who of Championship *********ry. I didn't take much away from it, other than what is available to Ivic will have to work hard. I do hope that those that don't want to be here fark off quick, as we need a reboot. Any player guilty of being part of the problem last season that kicks up a fuss will be hated by our fan base, and it's nice to see the non "injured" contingent of last seasons lot chipping in for a much needed win
The issue is who we are left with once the window closes. Yes, not all 17 are going to be sold, but: Likely/Certain to go: Deeney Deulofeu Welbeck Capoue Pereyra Estupinan Suarez Dawson (if he is refusing to play) That leaves us with: Success - useless and crocked Penarada - pretty useless Dele-Bashiru - could contribute Janmaat - crocked Gray - hopefully he can perform in the championship Hughes - future captain if Spurs don't poach him Perica - unknown Masina - out for however many months Sarr - looks like he will stay at this point but that could change towards the end of the window. That's without taking into consideration the fact our squad yesterday included Jerome bloody Sinclair, Pussetto who is somehow still here despite all the claims he was back in Italy, Femenia who wants to move back to Spain and Foster who could still end up leaving. The truth is our squad needs loads of new faces. Each new face has risk attached. I'm sure some of our signings will be great but others won't work out. These are concerning times.
We have been crying out for a squad overhaul because of the collective weak mentality, the fact they moan as soon as the going gets tough and if they don't get their way they down tools and let successive coaches down. It's inevitable we will lose our more saleable assets and prices likely to Yes there will be outgoings but there will also be incomings who at least one would hope would show more effort than some of those who played last season Deeney Fat lump, past his best, not available for some weeks, would if stayed lead to lumping balls up to him, too strong an influence in the squad Deulofeu Big loss if recovers from ACL Welbeck Likely to get crocked again Capoue Probably the biggest loss Pererya A passenger for much of last season Estupinan Would like him to stay but last yr of contract Suarez A loss too but not seen him play, been good in Spanish 2nd division but thats a level below the championship Dawson Not a great loss
Completely agree that we will need to strengthen, especially given the squad yesterday, must have been close to the two goalies on the bench routine when selecting Sinclair. I like Ivic, great trolling to almost bring him on then change his mind, I can't have been the only one to be open mouthed in disbelief that he might actually take the field. My point really was that I believe if we had picked Capoue, Wellbeck, Pereyra etc... last night they would have played, just that many seem to think they are on some sort of strike which I don't believe is the case, more that they are not being selected for the reasons I gave. If they were selected and refused to play I would happily grab my pitchfork and join the lynch mob but I think it is more club/manager driven than player.
Sarr and Pedro if we can keep will destroy the clod hopping centre backs in the Championship. If we can add a goalscorer then happy days . Which other team has the quality of Sarr and Pedro ?. Which team has a better centre mid than Hughes?. As long as the back 3\4\5 are reasonably competent then happy days !!.
They won’t be hated by our fanbase. Theoretically say, Welbeck, could spend all summer bad-mouthing the club yet not get a move. Then scores a couple of winners and most fans would forget. Capoue was deemed lazy and arrogant a few seasons back and most couldn’t wait to get rid - now look. Our fanbase is meek and mild and the vast majority have opinions that change with the wind. And I include all of us is that at one point or another.
A season after we nearly didn’t exist? Whilst watching some of the most exhilarating football ever with one of the top five football moments ever included? The players were good to do that, season was a success and you’re a nob. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
With with this squad as it stands and the potential to lose players 3rd would be good. Can all change ofcouse . Sarr and Suarez might stay and get the zillions of goals people expect!
Why is this necessary? Because I have a point you don’t agree with, so what? Grow up. The point was made in the context of the debate that was being had - if you haven’t taken the effort to bother seeing that, I’m not gonna repeat it just for you.
Despite a bumpy season the year after, we were in a good place to kick on after that. Don't win promotion this season, and it will be a whole lot harder in the next few...
Because you’re a **** when you make your point. What did you expect in 12/13 when the season started and we had Chris Iwelumo starting some games? Genuine question, because if anyone on here says they expected promotion before a ball was kicked based on the likes of Abdi, Forestieri & Vydra who they’d never seen play then they are lying. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Welcome to the Championship. Blackburn denied a 3 goal at Bournemouth. Cantwell should have got a straight red at Huddersfield. Unless we get our sh*t together or we have other players to bring in, we will struggle. Let's hope we keep some on that long list of players wishing to leave. As long as they show some desire to work for the team. 46 games of joy ahead
So you haven’t read the context of the debate. @NathWFC said the loanees we seem to be getting are a poorer standard to what we have been given before - and the context is that we have been told the only goal this season is to get promoted - the reply that came his way was a list of players with a particular season 12/13 referenced - this was a season where we didn’t go up. So they weren’t good enough if the goal was to go up and nothing else...but that wasn’t the only goal that season so the reference is a moot point and that’s what I pointed out - I never said I didn’t enjoy it at all! Context is key and when you decided to bowl in you clearly hadn’t read the thread and just decided name-calling was your way to get involved. Odd really. I’ve not been rude to you. I’ve not given you personal abuse. Your clearly have a problem so just put me on ignore! (As a separate point, I enjoyed the season in question! But that isn’t what was being discussed! - so when you think you’re big coming in calling people names and swearing, just check yourself first rather than making yourself look an idiot.)
And I’m saying those loanees got us to within TWO goals of being promoted with the SAME credentials as some of the loanees coming in this season as displayed above by someone already. So we have arguably a better core and loanees that on paper could be of the same standard and still like six weeks till the window closes. I understand the potential panic of how disastrous this season could turn out to be but it’s a little bit early no? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
We have 100% record this season and we are only 10th in the league, why haven’t the Pozzos changed our name to AFC Watford we need all the help we can get!
That’s fine. I understand that side of the argument and don’t disagree with it. And I particularly agree with the last paragraph. My point wasn’t to talk down those players we had or even the season - it was to just frame them as being incorrect in the finer context with which they were brought up. If you didn’t like the way I came across, I guess I apologise? But there was zero reason for personal abuse (again)...I really hope we don’t have to do this again as it’s needless! You can make your point without it! Let’s move on.
The Udinese of old were competing in Europe on a fairly regular basis, selling players for handsome sums and bringing new ones through. The Udinese of today are barely staying afloat in Serie A, playing absolute dogshit like Marv Z and Okaka on a regular basis. Sure they sent us some genuine apologies for professional footballers, but they had a much stronger operation in general. It’s pointless comparing the unknowns of today to the unknowns of yesterday, but it’s fair to say Udinese are far weaker now than the glory days.
Champions league places and top 6 contenders once upon a time weren't they ? Until the Pozzos took us over which is probably why they hate us ...
I think part of the reason has been competition for players. Bigger clubs in the past were quite happy for clubs like Udinese to find the diamonds in the rough and then they'd buy them from Udinese. However the footballing landscape has changed and the bigger clubs now want to target these players at the same time as Udinese etc, which means their market is diluted somewhat.
Probably. I think most fan bases are meek, we don't really influence what goes on. I don't mind any player that fancies knuckling down and showing their quality in a much easier league. I genuinely think the likes of Femenia, Sema, Kabasele, Chalobah, Cleverley and Dawson have more than enough ability to help us mount a promotion challenge. They all need confidence after it was drained out of them and hopefully this league will give them that. I don't really expect Deulofeu or Sarr to play this season, and I wouldn't begrudge either a move as they are the only two that deserve to play at a higher level. Who knows. I think there will be a massive overhaul in the next month, and hopefully there will be an emphasis on young replacements for whoever does go
Could I ask @NathWFC, in a very polite, Socratic way what would he have wanted to see this season? Would you like the owners to have sold? If so when and to what kind of new owner? What players would you have liked to stay and who should have gone? What should the strategy be this season?
Ngakia tries to make things happen rather than playing it safe which is why his pass completion isn't great. He attempted 114 passes in his PL appearances with West Ham - 22 of those (19.3%) of those were passes into the penalty area, another 5% were through-balls all of which are obviously high risk/high reward His pass-map from Friday represents that well - very rarely takes sideways or backwards passes - always looks to instead progress the ball, which is higher risk and reflects in his pass completion. I don't think it's a bad thing.
He’s also 19 and we have to remember that - he will make mistakes. But will likely nearly always make them trying to do the right thing. He will only progress as a player from what I’ve seen of his career so far. Better than the alternative of Femenia who is literally regressing in front of our eyes. Plus, as much as things are up in the air at our club, he’s clearly got some sort of brain in his head as he knew it was wise to get out of West Ham.
Agree. I think they’ve also failed to continue finding innovative ways to stay ahead of the competition. The video scouting and analytics they used to discover potential in unusual places are commonplace amongst all clubs now, so the competitive advantage they leveraged to compete above their weight has been diminished.
If they wanted to adapt I'd heavily focus on Africa. Very few clubs around the world are actively scouting the likes of Ghana, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali - these leagues aren't even on Wyscout etc which means you need scouts on the ground to cover them. Most clubs don't see it as a worthwhile practice as they mostly tend to be pretty raw and they wouldn't get work permits in most countries. This is one thing that Red Bull are doing incredibly well which is giving them such a huge boost (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Red_Bull_Salzburg#Current_squad) - 3 players from Mali, 2 from Zambia (including Haalands heir Daka who is incredible), 1 from Cameroon, 1 from Ghana. Further players from Ghana and Nigeria out on loan. Farm team Liefering have another player from Mali on the books. Leipzig have another from Mali that has progressed from Salzburg. They face practically no competition for these players as nobody else is doing it (which is crazy considering the amount of talent to come from Africa). Although with only 2 non-EU slots in the league Udinese would struggle to take them, but if I were Gino I'd look at a team in Belgium/Holland/Denmark/Sweden/Norway which has relatively lax work permit restrictions to funnel them into Europe. The leading academy in Ghana was so miffed at losing their stars for peanuts that they ended up buying a team in Denmark to send the best players so they'd get more for them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Nordsjælland#Current_squad)
Great post. Their entire footballing operation has paid the price for standing still, rather than finding new ways to gain an edge.
