So if Gracia comes 13th you think he has underachieved? I'm not sure what planet some of you live in. It's like a Gino Pozzo cult. Give the manager credit FFS.
I think our squad is clearly better than the teams bunched up at the bottom of the table (14th and below) and marginally better than Palace (bar Zaha). The rest we are above due to a combination of being lucky with injuries, having decent quality in depth, a good shape and a happy and hard working team. Javi’s done a great job at the latter two.
My opinion is we've clearly got the best squad since promotion in terms of quality, however, we have inconsistent and aging quality. From our team only Doucs would get into a top 6 team - when he's fully fit. Holebas 5 or 6 years ago probably would, Foster although I#ve always liked him and by his own admission doesn't have the mentality for top 6 - hence why he didn't make it at Manure - football's a job for him. Delofeu has the quality, but we're seeing why he's not a top 6 player - wildly inconsistent. The rest wouldn't get any where near. So we have a mid table squad, comfortably good enough to stay up but not good enough to challenge for Europe and capable of breaking the top 10. Wolves and ourselves are overachieving - Wolves are riding the promotion wave, I don't see it being the same next season as they're easy to figure out and Nuno doesn't seem to have a plan B. We, however, can grind out results and surprise the opposition and us the fans and that is down to Javi - we have a 12th/13th squad - so to be 8th with a buffer is because of the way we're set up. Gino has his ideal coach in charge hence the long contract, non assuming, no delusion of grandeur and no ego - he just gets on with the job and tries to makes us competitive - sometimes he gets it wrong, but which coach doesn't.
I think Charlton have yet to master step 8... 'The Pardew Trap' might make a decent movie. Horror movie. Especially if you include THAT touchline dance.
Agree with this. To add: Capoue for the most part this season has been top 6 worthy, but maybe that’s Doucoure’s influence.
Good point well made, and not a put down in sight. I still think you underestimate us, but wouldn't argue with anything you have said. I have been singing Holebas's praises since he arrived. He is sheer class, I believe the issue for him is that when the team is playing well, you will see him play well, but when we are playing poorly, as we have done over extended periods in the last three and a half years, you do not get to see the best of him, just from the nature of his game. I have been expecting his age to catch up with him in the last two closed seasons, but he does seem to get better if anything. I also think that based on his form, Capoue could easily do a job in a top six side, even if it is not as the main man. I stand by my point about Mapps. I believe, even if I don't expect anyone else to believe me, that he could do a job for any team in the PL. His tackling is excellent with fantastic timing, and he has shown he can defend against all manner of teams. I'm not saying the top six teams don't have better, I just believe he would not let any team down at this level, even at this stage of his career. The point I was trying to make to Jumbo and Undies was exactly what you say in your first line. I agree that this is the best squad we have had since promotion, and kind of by default, since the eighties. I think the point was being deliberately ignored as inconvenient that, as has so often been stated, we buy for the squad not for the coach. That is why I implied that the argument, about Javi having suffered from poor investment, was redundant. Whether the boys think it is a 14-17th level or a top 8 level, it is hard to deny that it is the best squad since promotion, and therefore Javi is the best equipped coach we have had since the Worksop God-child.
We have a squad that should be finishing 7th to 10th Forget about if the top 6 would want our players because that’s the wrong measure. The question is would any of our squad improve the squads chasing 7th - 10th? I would say we have a good 6-10 players who would.
Where we do very well is being competitive with cheap players. I mean, who's our most expensive flop? Gray? Ok he hasn't been a huge success but he's still a solid enough Premier League player and has made decent contributions to both seasons he's been here. Compare that to some of the absolute dross that has been bought by teams around us. They regularly pay upwards of £20-25 million for players that either barely play or play for a season then get loaned out abroad before eventually leaving at a huge loss. Gray would probably make us money if we sold him.
Pozzo has found a very clear position within the football transfer food chain (providing an EPL showcase to young talent from S America who want to have game time). Ironic that we can offer a path to greatness for Quina & Pen but not young Sancho.
If you can name 10 Watford players who could improve Wolves', Everton's or West Ham's lineup, I'll eat my hat. Edit: you've tempted me. Looking at the three clubs, I think the following would improve us: West Ham: Balbuena, Anderson, Antonio, Arnautovic, Yarmolenko and Lanzini. Fabianski is probably tied with Foster this season, and Zabaleta is probably equal to Kiko/ Janmaat. Everton: Zouma, Evans (when fit), Digne, Sigurdsson, Richarlison (boo!) and Gomes. Wolves: Doherty, Boly, Jonny, Neves, Moutinho (on current form), Jiminez and Jota.
Likewise, Lesta. As these teams have squads of similar quality, it is maybe no surprise that they all have similar amounts of points. The main diff is in how much the squads cost.
I agree, Capoue is having a great season but you would have to look at the whole package for top 6 in terms of temperament. No doubting he's talented but like Foster, football is a job to him which is why he didn't succeed at Spurs - he was also immature and a disruptive influence. Not speaking for Jumbolina, however if I've read it correctly, our first 3 of seasons Gino would invest heavily in both windows to push us on to ensure safety and clear out the crap. What we've seen in the last year is less throw 'spaghetti at the wall' recruitment, so Javi hasn't had the same level of investment that previous coaches have - and that's a fair comment. The club has said they looked for a CB in January but the right opportunity never materialised, however my opinion is they backed Javi's talent at getting the best out of what he's got and actually coaching the squad - something Silva is incapable of. We're an average squad punching above our weight and that's down to Javi.
Oops - I accidentally mixed-up Everton with Leicester, re: Evans. Confusing two mid table, blue-kit-wearing, average teams.
That's interesting - I wonder how the fans of those clubs would respond if they were asked which of OUR players would improve their squads. I would envisage quite a few names could or would get a mention :- Foster / Holebas / Cathcart / Capoue / Doucoure / Hughes / Deulofeu / Pereyra / Deeney ………...
The difference between us/wolves/leicester and the top 6 is our best players would "do a job" or get in their squads, where nearly every one of their reserve team squad players would make a difference to us. See Capoue and Delefoeu, our better players, not 1st teamers at a top club. Every one of the other premier league teams has players who could step up to play for the top 6 or those who have done and been bit part or simply not broken through.
I think they may also fancy Quina, Penaranda and Chalobah from our current squad and Cucho, Lukebakio and Wilmot from our extended squad. I think those club would be more than happy to take those players. Even more so if they could get them for the same price we did.
I think I must have misunderstood, because I read this as you saying their reserve players would improve our first 11, and that would be silly.
I would disagree with many of those but would take Lanzini, Digne, Neves. Some I wouldn't take due to age or attitude or reliability be it injury prone or inconsistency and because some are not up to the standard we already have. From our squad we already know that players have had bids or interest shown in them but apart from them we have: Foster, Holebas, Cathcart, Capoue, Doucoure, Hughes, Deulofeu, Pereyra as well as about 6 others that would be interesting to them in the future but not for their 1st team now.
Some of my list are more marginal, but Felipe Anderson (for Sema), Balbuena/ Zouma (for Maps), Jiminez (for GD) and Sigurdsson (for Hughes) would improve our first team significantly. Arnautovic has an attitude problem, but would be a massive upgrade in quality compared with our current forwards (Deeney and Success).
Crumbling in the second half of the season again, I see. Probably because, once again, he’s the only member of the changing room that likes Silva.
It’s an interesting debate that is happening and I do see both sides of it. In terms of ability, I don’t think any of our defenders is capable of consistently playing to Top 4 standards across a season. I don’t say Top 6 because Arsenal’s defence is a shambles and a couple of ours would be in with a shout of game time there. Also question marks over Chelsea and United’s defence. But the latter two clubs, you would think will be looking at improving over the summer and they won’t be looking in our direction to achieve that. No chance. But the top sides want defenders who have more facets to their game than our first choice have. Gracia has to be given tremendous credit for the work he has done with the defence. It’s been awful in previous seasons. And there’s been no investment on last season so it’s clearly mainly down to his coaching and the players responding. But the next question has to be - how long can he continue to do that, when we know the CB’s have been poor before and they aren’t getting any younger? I’d much rather ask another question - Imagine what Gracia could do with younger, more technical CB’s? That’s where the club should be looking IMO. A lot of the debate comes down to are they a Top 8 defence because we sit eighth? Or is there more to it than that? Tarkowski and Mee were touted as international class last season because Burnley finished 7th - Maguire is rated at a very high price and coveted by the big sides but isn’t currently in a top half side? I think you can only label a player with a reasonable assessment over a period of time in that respect. I think Mariappa has been much improved in the last month. But I cannot agree that he would be solid at any club above us - his reading of the attackers movement has cost us a few times this season. He’s taking his opportunity at present but I don’t think the club should be looking at that in the long-term. He’s a squad player with the added bonus of being homegrown. And it’s kudos to him that he’s pushed himself above the likes of Prodl and Britos when you look at who the club are likely to retain over the summer. But as I said when the window a couple of weeks ago, I think the last window was the last one where we could afford to standstill with what we have in terms of CB’s. This is down to age, the potential of added games next season and the fact that IMO, Mariappa still has those mistakes in him that cost goals and I’m not convinced of Kabasele.
Interesting points. Our cadre of CBs is currently: Craig Cathcart Adrian 'Captain Panic' Mariappa Christian 'Oh god, he's going to do something stupid' Kabasele Miguel 'Legbreaker' Britos Sebastain '3 point turn' Prodl I think they view Ben Wilmott as a defensive midfielder although it's not clear because if he fills out when he's finished growing, would make an excellent ball playing CB. Sounds quite far out there, however maybe develop Masina as a left sided CB to give some balance as 3 of our back 4 are right footed. He's got the height and physical presence to play there - he's only 25 so can still learn the position.
I wonder how long it's going to be before Gary Linker condemns our pre-match music choices as "disrespectful"?
