Academy And Under-23s

Discussion in 'The Team Bus' started by wfc78, Aug 14, 2012.

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  1. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    @The Recluse will probably know them most on here about Bennets. I can't remember much of him. If he was only given a 1+1 deal last summer at the age of 17 it doesn't suggest he'd be one of our best youth players though? Doesn't seem he was at Harefield either.
     
  2. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Well, I have an opinion. Whether it's reliable or not is another thing!

    For what it's worth I'm not surprised he has asked the club not to take up the option, and that's if they saw the benefit of doing so anyway.

    Two seasons ago Bennetts looked a very good prospect. Quick, could go past a player and with a half decent eye for goal for an attacking midfielder. He could play both wings, behind a forward or even as the central striker. He was strong enough and willing to tackle back. His passing was okay but his choice of when to release the ball wasn't. My other reservations were what seemed a complete lack of heading ability and a bit of an ego. His exasperation when teammates failed to pick him out or they hadn't made the correct run onto his pass were not pleasing to see, neither were the sulky moments when decisions he was looking for didn't go his way. He had a good season though and stood out amongst the other young players. I admit I was a little disappointed he was only given a 1 year contract with the option of another if needed as the basics were there in abundance and he seemed to have that 'something' about him.

    His opportunities lessened this past season with the arrival of Hungbo & Crichlow and even when the latter broke his ankle Bennetts was no longer the guaranteed starter that he'd been a season earlier. He'd bulked up which was good to see but was now finding it harder to go by his opponent with no obvious tricks or skill set developing. His attitude hadn't improved either. He may be a great lad but his tendency to sulk is frustrating. I may be wrong, it could just be a perfectionists frustration but he needs to get his head up and play. He hadn't really improved his passing, quite often holding onto the ball too long or trying a Hollywood pass when ball retention would have been better. I think he picked up a few niggly injuries as well which won't have helped his development.

    Overall I think it's probably better for him to go. Lo-Everton, Hinds, Hungbo & Crichlow all look better players who play in his positions and there seems to be a few of the u-18s who will be pushing for involvement in the u-23s next season as well. There will also be new players coming in I'm sure.

    For players to look out for I'd say Daniel Phillips is the stand out one. I really hope they offer him a contract and he wants to stay. He missed a lot of this season after a bad injury while on loan at Hemel Hempstead but a couple of cameo appearances towards the end of the season for our u-23s showed he was still a huge presence in the midfield.

    Harry Hudson (19, CB) has something about him and I have a soft spot for Emmanuel Adebiyi (19, CM). Dominic Hutchinson (18, M, A) seems very highly rated though I've not seen him yet and JJ McKeirnan (18, M) has had impressive decent little spells when coming on as sub for the u-23s.

    Of those I've highlighted I think Hinds, Hungbo, Hudson, Phillips & Adebiyi are all out of contract this summer. Crichlow & McKeirnen have a year to go while I think Hutchinson is still on a scholarship deal. I don't know about Lo-Everton.
     
  3. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Apologies if these have already been posted, it's been a while since delving into unannounced signings and departures...

    The updated squad list as of February 2020 shows two departures from the U21 players from the start of the season.
    (https://www.premierleague.com/news/1603207)

    Rio Campbell has left the academy and signed professional terms with Swansea City on a 2 1/2 year contract.
    (https://www.swanseacity.com/news/swansea-city-sign-rio-campbell)

    Ryan Suckling has also left and after initially joining the Aldershot Town Academy he has now received a scholarship at the Gardner Webb University in North Carolina.


    Players added are: Joao Pedro, Teddy Perkins (cb) & Myles Roberts (g/k).


    I've specifically been looking for Derek Agyakwa (confirmation) & Leandro Paiva (information) but can find nothing on either.
     
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  4. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I believe the retained/released lists for Premier League clubs are published tomorrow (June 25th).

    I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a little bit excited.
     
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  5. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    May not always get people saying it, but I'm sure there are plenty on here who look at your posts in this section and enjoy them. I'm grateful you do this 'work' as I'm way too lazy to. Thanks
     
    The Voice of Reason and reids like this.
  6. nornironhorn

    nornironhorn Administrator Staff Member

  7. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I've not long got in so am currently working my way through the list.

    I must admit, on first glance there is only one real surprise (Harry Hudson leaving) and I'm a little disappointed Dan Phillips only has a 12 month extension offered. I'll write more this afternoon.

    Thanks EBH!

    I must admit my enthusiasm has waned due to personal circumstances and now pretty much doing it on my own. I'll try to keep track of what's going on though.
     
  8. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I second that. Excellent work 'The Recluse'
     
  9. Guy

    Guy Squad Player

  10. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Troy will be playing up front for next 5 years so no point in keeping them
     
  11. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    First of all, all the players released were at the end of their contracts. Nobody has been released ahead of time.

    The only player I have on record as being out of contract this month and not having any news is Callum Whelan (21y/o cm, 22 in September).
    I'm surprised at this as he seems to be liked by the club, made his debut in the FA Cup and has developed from the start of the season after joining from Manchester United into an impressive central midfielder at u23 level. He doesn't look it but he's pretty strong, has decent awareness, a good range of passing and doesn't shy away from tackles. It could be he was offered and signed an improved contract earlier in the season, I don't know. Certainly one to keep an eye on with regards to his contract situation.

    I must stress all observations pertain to u23 level for these players. What looks good on the pitch at St Albans for the u23s won't translate to how they will perform at Vicarage Road for the 1st XI.

    I'll go by position and give my uneducated opinion on each player. Here goes...

    Goalkeepers

    released:
    James Hoskins (19) & Harvey White (19) - impossible to give any kind of opinion on the limited times I've seen either play other than neither caught the eye.

    1 year contract extension:
    Adam Parkes (20) - very much the 1st choice keeper for the u23s and a steady if unspectacular player with few obvious weaknesses.

    Dante Baptiste
    (18) - Very little seen of Baptiste this season but when I saw him last season he showed himself to have tremendous reflexes and to be a very good shot stopper. If he can improve his catching from crosses and kicking off the floor he could develop into a pretty good 'keeper.

    The only other 'keeper on the books that I know of is Myles Roberts (18, contracted to 2022) and from what I've seen he looks very raw.

    So with Parkes, Baptiste and Roberts as the three to spread between the u23s & u18s it seems obvious at least one more 'keeper will come in and also adds a little fuel to the rumour regarding Yassine Gourari-Tebaa (19) of FC Metz coming to the club.

    Defenders

    released:
    Jamal Balogun (20, rb) - no surprise here. Tremendous character & often captain but a very average defender. Passing well below par.

    Lewis Gordon
    (19, lb) - injuries have hampered any progress in the past 2 seasons. Very quick but too often reactive when defending rather than anticipating well. Good going forward and with luck will excel at non-league level before progressing, providing he stays injury free.

    Cameron Green (21, lb) - no surprise in his release. Ridiculously quick, intelligent & like Balogun has tremendous character but positioning, passing & consistency were all average.

    Harry Hudson (19, cb) - this is a real surprise. A true leader & organiser, very strong tackler and decent in the air. Quick enough & positioning was generally good. I can only imagine the club feel Spencer-Adams, Barrett, Agyakwa, Perkins & possibly Janjeva are better with the ball at their feet. He should have no trouble finding a Conference or maybe even a League 1 club.

    James Matthews (18) - I've never seen him play.

    With no information given on Leandro Paiva I can only assume he hasn't signed permanently after his trial last July. I'll keep an eye on him nonetheless.

    1 year contract extension - offer:
    Bayli Spencer-Adams (18, cb) - Bayli will be 19 on 26/6/20. Easy on the eye defender but will need to build his stamina. When on trial he cramped up & did the same on first team debut. Comfortable on the ball and stays calm.

    1 year contract extension:
    Derek Agyakwa
    (18, cb) - official confirmation of his arrival after we were told by @DrewH back in February of him signing. Not yet turned out for the u23s so I've not seen him play.

    Midfield

    released:
    Jayden Bennetts (18, am, w, f) - Jayden will be 19 on 26/6/20. @hornetboy1 has already documented Bennetts asked not to have the 1 year option the club had not to be taken up. A frustrating player for me. Plenty of ability but has stood still this season with his place under competition and had the attitude (outwardly) of someone who has already made it. If he gets his head down, works hard and leaves the remonstrating & attitude behind he could do well. The right decision to let him go.

    Kaylen Hinds (22, am) - failed to shine despite playing a lot of games, usually just behind the main striker. A distinct lack of flair, which surprised me. No loss seeing him go.

    Emmanuel Adebiyi (19, cm) - looked good last season but few opportunities this. Nice touches, good work rate and maybe a little slow. Good but not a stand-out performer. Disappointed to see him go but lack of progress in his development and with the likes of Whelan, Phillips & Wise at the club meant he was always going to be down the pecking order.

    Ryan Maclean (18) - I've not seen him play.

    Imaad Sankoh (17, cm) - formed a good understanding with Adebiyi last season but disappeared down to the u18s this season. I thought he had promise but like so many midfielders at this level, no obvious weaknesses but very little to set them apart from everyone else.

    1 year contract extension - offer:
    Harry Forster (20, w) - good to see Harry offered a new deal. Has the ability to beat his man and strikes the ball well. Excellent attitude, neat on the ball and pretty quick. This will be a make or break year for him at the club if he stays.

    1 year contract extension:
    Daniel Phillips
    (19, cm) - excellent player, the best prospect at the club in my opinion. Strong, wants the ball in any situation, passes well, tackles well, quick and has a good amount of flair for a player who plays deep in midfield. Can play further up and has shown to finish calmly. Get him on a long term contract!

    Henry Wise (20, cm) - I'm not convinced by Henry. Quite lightweight, not blessed with pace and seems to struggle in a central two. Does have an excellent range of passing so maybe behind the striker could be his position. Lucky to stay in my opinion.

    Joseph Hungbo (20, w) - a good prospect who will hopefully develop further next season. Has an eye for goal, good pace and delivers a decent ball from wide. Does need to keep possession more instead of trying the killer pass so often or holding onto the ball too long. Definitely worth sticking with for now though.

    JJ McKiernan (18, m) - I've only seen fleeting glimpses of JJ, coming on as sub a few times for the u23s. Leggy and looks a little awkward but is deceptively quick. Breaks up play well and passes neatly. Seems to have something about him.

    2 year deal:
    Sonny Blu Lo-Everton
    (17, m, am) - we all know about Lo-Everton don't we? Excellent ball player, set piece taker and even at just 17 has all the attributes to develop into the complete player. An exciting prospect who we'll probably lose to a big club before he makes his debut! He's not ready to break though into the first team yet, give him another couple of seasons before that happens.

    Forwards

    released:
    Michael Folivi (22, f) - the perfect example of how difficult it is to go from u23 football to first team action on loan. Last season he was scoring for fun, looked good in most of what he did and outshone Ryan Cassidy in every department. Yet he struggled badly the longer he was on loan at Wimbledon this time around before injury finished his season off early. Was never going to have the option of a further year exercised by the club.

    Alex Jakubiak (23, f) - just never realised his early potential and generally struggles to establish himself at any loan side. Was always going to be released this season.

    1 year contract extension:
    Dominic Hutchinson (18, am, f) - I've not seen him play yet but lots of excellent talk from the club about him. A leader, a goal scorer who plays along the front positions and I'll be hoping to see him pushing for a few games for the u23s next season if the club hype is to be believed.

    2 year deal - offer:
    Ryan Cassidy
    (19, f) - an injury & operation at the start of the season meant he was always playing catch up with the other players this season and just as he was looking like he was getting his sharpness back, the season came to a premature end. He'll now be playing against similar aged players and with a stronger body to hold off defenders I'm looking forward to seeing him progress next season.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  12. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Thank you HB1, it's much appreciated.
     
  13. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    They might get a chance if we go down as we will have to sell and probably won't spend much .
     
  14. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I wonder if that's what a few of those who have been offered deals are waiting for, which division we end up in.
     
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  15. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    In your view, if we are in the championship next season and we are left with the unsaleable players in the squad, do we have a couple of young players we can throw into the starting 11 alongside the likes of Deeney, Gray, Cleverley, Cathcart, Dawson and Foster ?
     
  16. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Thirded !
     
  17. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    Nice work Recluse :cool:

    Where do you get all your information from, are you connected to the club in some capacity other than just being a humble supporter like the rest of us?
     
  18. DrewH

    DrewH Administrator Staff Member

    Chelsea's Marcel Lavinier has been offered a deal by the club. Played a couple games as a trialist before lockdown.
     
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  19. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    How long are Dalby, Barrett and Janjeva contracted? They were all part of the squad to face Tranmere.
     
  20. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Thank you!

    The only one I would have any real confidence in right now would be Dan Phillips.
    He has a decent skill set with an without the ball, good strength (perhaps lacking in first team stamina) but just as importantly he seems to have the right mentality. His attitude and the way he plays screams out 'first team footballer'. He has bags of self belief insomuch as he never shies away from wanting or receiving the ball anywhere on the pitch or if he's marked. He also has a very good way of shielding the ball when it first comes to him by using his backside against the opponent before a short burst of speed takes him away.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how Ryan Cassidy starts next season if he stays. The last two seasons have seen him struggle to some extent in the u23s because he was out muscled a lot of the time. However, when he came back into the team towards the end of the season he looked far better equipped physically and had the stature of a young man (he only turned 19 in March) whereas previously he looked a little like an older boy playing against young men. If he stays and hits some form early on it could make for an interesting season for him if we are in the Championship.

    Joao Pedro would have to play if we're counting him as an u23 player right now. He'll be frustrating at times but yeah, he would be in there.

    I thought Mason Barrett could do well as he usually looks super smooth at the heart of the defence or at right back but he really struggled against Tranmere last season. That was when I truly appreciated just how much of a gap there is between u23 and first team football. Callum Whelan I would say is in the same category as Barrett. They both generally look too good for the u23s but are they good enough to make the very big leap to Championship football? Probably not just yet.

    I don't think there's much in it between non-league football and the u23s in terms of ability but it's the pace the game is played at as well as the strength of mind and body, and the further up the divisions you come it's the consistency of performance not just game to game but throughout the 90 minutes as well that's needed.

    It appears Pearson has a lot of the u23s training with the first team squad so hopefully the pace, consistency and concentration levels will be improved in the younger players.
     
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  21. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Thanks VoR!

    Nope, no connections to the club and just an ordinary supporter with an opinion on the younger players. There are others on here who are able to put forward information from the club but I'm not one of them.

    As for basic information, it's all on the internet really. Social media is good for picking up bits and pieces, it's just a question of following the right people and there are a few good sites who focus on the academies and youth football. It's just a question of casting the net far and wide and finding news where you can.
     
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  22. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    As far as I'm aware, Dalby & Barrett are contracted to 2021 with the option of a further year. Janjeva, I think, is still a scholar. If he is I think he'll be a 2nd year scholar next season as he's not 18 until October but I don't know for sure.
     
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  23. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Thanks for sharing Drew.
     
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  24. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I can see plenty of incomings for the u23s again this season. Something like 11 or 12 new players arrived before the start of the current season and I can see a similar amount this time.

    There are only 3 'keepers so we'll need at least 1, probably 2. Of the 3 here 2 are only 18 so I'd expect a 20+ year old to arrive to compete with Parkes.

    There isn't a natural left or right back on the books at u23 level with probably only 3 centre backs still here, 4 if Derek Agyakwa (18) is seen as part of the squad.

    The midfield has 3 players who can play in the centre, 2 if Callum Whelan leaves or is promoted to the first team squad, and there are 3 natural wide players still here. Sonny Blu Lo-Everton is still only 17 so I'm not really seeing him as a player who'll play week in week out, it'll depend how he stands up playing regularly against physically stronger players.

    It isn't any better up front either with only Cassidy & Dalby obvious choices.

    So, other than expecting lots of new names to appear before next season it also means there aren't too many players waiting to step up to the first team squad whatever division we end up in.

    We still have plenty of 17 & 18 year olds in all positions but there's a big difference between the u18s and u23 squads in terms of physical development. So while I'd hope there will be one or two 18 year olds getting some games, I don't think it will be the norm. We only have 4x 19 year old players, 8x 20 or 21 and none aged 22 at the time of writing who aren't deemed first team squad players. I don't see Joao Pedro playing for the u23s next season so I've not counted him or any of the younger foreign players out on loan.

    This may all look a bit depressing (or exciting if you like to see new names turning up every other day throughout June & July!) but it's worth remembering our u23s were sitting top of their division when football was called off and the u18s were in 4th. I saw most home games for the u23s this season and only once were we outplayed, against Leeds United. They also destroyed us up at Ellend Road. Sadly, a successful side doesn't mean it includes individuals ready to make the step up.

    What I have seen is how the vast majority of sides (including us) have been made up of competent footballers. Players well trained in terms of basic technique, formations & tactics but lacking in flair, exceptional skill(s) or that special something which sets them apart. Leeds, and maybe QPR who had some nice 'ballers' (urgh), were the only sides who really made an impression.

    Last seasons intake saw the first real effort to bring players released from other Premiership sides to Watford and as far as I can make out none of those have been released. It seems a subtle shift in how the u23 group is being used so it may take a few more seasons to really see any benefits and of course, it'll all depend which division we're in at any given time. Personally I don't think relegation means we'd see the youngsters getting any real game time for the first team anyway. I think the owners will rely on free transfers and cheap imports to replace any big earners who are sold on.

    One other aspect of looking at Premiership sides for youngsters is the change in the amount of players clubs can now loan out. It could be we're spending more on wages for players developed in this country as opposed to developing large numbers of non-European players at lower league Spanish, Belgium or Dutch sides.

    So expect a lot of u23 players to sign who none of us know but don't expect them to be knocking on the first team door yet, Daniel Phillips aside.
     
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  25. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I mentioned the other day Callum Whelan was the one player soon to be out of contract who wasn't mentioned in the recent club statement on players with new deals and those being released.

    (https://www.watfordfc.com/news/club/academy-new-contracts-offered)

    Apparently nothing has been signed to extend his stay but negotiations are ongoing according to Ryan Gray of the Watford Observer.

    This still seems strange as we were told other players in the club statement were yet to sign the new deals offered, so why not include Whelan amongst them?
     
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  26. DrewH

    DrewH Administrator Staff Member

    Probably already signed a new unannounced contract earlier on in the year like Kabasele, Janmaat etc.
     
  27. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    That's what I thought must have happened when he wasn't included in the club statement.

    Yesterday, just so I could scratch that itch of not knowing, I asked Ryan Gray, Kevin Affleck, Adam Leventhal, the player himself and also his agency directly via twitter (you never know!) if he had signed anything.

    Ryan G. gave me a reply this morning saying talks are ongoing while Adam L. has replied this afternoon saying, and I quote, "He has signed an extension, what happens after that is TBC." - which seems an odd thing to say.

    No replies from Affleck, the player or his agents which, to be honest, I'm not expecting anyway.
     
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  28. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    ‘Extension’ as in extended from original expiry today, until end of July to cover this season.
     
  29. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Of course!

    FFS, my brain is still in lockdown mode so I didn't even think of that - cheers @simpleMASH
     
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  30. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    No worries. It’s still strange hearing about contract extensions of 4 weeks!

    Thanks for your insights on the youth players.
     
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  31. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I thought Lo-Everton & Hutchinson would only play sparingly with the U23s next season, with the club not wanting to put too much physical pressure on still developing bodies. It looks like the club are really pushing these two forward though with recent articles about them on the club site both saying they've been moved up to the older age group.

    Hutchinson: https://www.watfordfc.com/news/clark-on-hutchinson-hell-embrace-the-step-up

    Lo-Everton: https://www.watfordfc.com/news/quin-on-lo-everton-hes-a-dream-to-work-with

    It'll be interesting to see which other players (if any) from last seasons U18 squad are highlighted in the coming days and weeks to see who else the club has high hopes for.

    Are we actually witnessing young talent being developed and pushed towards the first team squad sooner rather than later? With Ryan Cassidy barely 19 years old and being offered a 2-year contract, are they intimating he'll be afforded some opportunities with the main side next season? (I still can't believe Phillips was only given a 12 month extension though (*sobs into his milky drinking chocolate*)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  32. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Apologies for the multiple posts in this thread but there's no other sod up at this time of night so you'll have to listen to my thoughts, ok!

    So Dominic Hutchinson. Pushed on last season with the U18s, made captain and scored plenty while impressing all with his attitude, application and development.

    His representatives are an interesting choice... Stallar Football Ltd.

    They also have Mason Mount, Jack Grealish, Pepê and some fella called Gareth Bale on their books.
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/stellar-football-ltd/beraterfirma/berater/190

    One last bit of random information about him... he's only 8 months younger than Cassidy.
    Cassidy already seems to have been around for a fair time yet they're almost the same age.

    Can we re-start the U23 season already so I can watch these two!

    Talking of the current youth football season, what a screw up that's turned out to be. The academies aren't even back in training yet!
    https://trainingground.guru/article...l-not-resume-until-september-12th-at-earliest

    Edit: I've also just realised Hutchinson will probably be too old to play for the U18s next season so not quite the revelation I first thought it was for him to be moving up an age group.

    I really should stop posting.
     
  33. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    Well it's good to know about them - one day we might see some play.

    Trouble is the club hype a lot of youngsters up then we never give them a chance.

    All that fuss over Pedro when he came ...

    And barely kicked a ball in the first team.
     
  34. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    It seems to be the policy of letting the young players settle into a new country before expecting too much on the pitch from them. Not something Pape Gueye will have trouble with.
     
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  35. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    Definitely don't apologise or stop posting - as I mentioned before I'm certain there are plenty on here who enjoy this information and your thoughts. I very much do and it'll be great to hear about one of them finally make it up to the 1st team - your posts will mean I personally will feel I've watched that development. Thanks again
     

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