Watford 0-3 Liverpool 3pm - 24/11/2018

Discussion in 'Match Day' started by Steve Leo Beleck, Nov 18, 2018.

  1. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Just a thought. If Watford had incorrectly been awarded a few pens in Division 4, maybe Mike Keen wouldn't have been sacked when he was, GT would have gone to West Brom and the rest wouldn't have been history
     
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  2. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Yes, only saw that from the Sky highlights, not MOTD.
     
  3. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    So the player who was supposedly fouled can't say for sure if it was a penalty? When he himself says he's unsure if he was kicked hard enough, that alone should say its dubious and not the stonewall penalty some have claimed.
     
  4. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    That isn't 'all we have to consider' when the player himself doesn't even know if he was fouled. Rather more, an attacker would know when he's been fouled and if Hughes is unsure, IMO that points more one way than the other.
     
  5. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Our pressing was half hearted, to say the least.

    In the first half, VvD had a postcode to himself.
     
  6. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I disagree. It's not a "win some lose some". It depends who you are, whether you get it or not. Bournemouth 100% would have been awarded that, so would Liverpool had it been Salah going down. Some teams just get them, some teams do not. We've had no penalties awarded this season.

    The action of Robertson, was a high tackle, towards his knee and he did catch Hughes. We can debate this all day, but I believe there was more than enough to award a penalty. Studs were up going into the leg of an opponent. Going on the yardstick Michael Oliver set when he sent off Troy Deeney in his revenge red card, that could also have been a red card. I've certainly seen them given for less. Personally, I don't think there was enough contact for a red but it was a dangerous movement from Robertson. As I say, I've seen them given for less.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  7. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    I'd be more inclined to accept Robertson's protestations of innocence if the point of contact (however slight) was not knee-high...tackling someone at ground level & marginally "catching" them is a bit different to a mistimed "tackle" at that height. I have no doubt that the challenge in question would have been immediately penalised outside the box.
     
  8. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I have to agree, Hughes has not done himself any favours with his point of view. Our players seem to be a little bit na*ve when it comes to this sort of thing.

    But you can only give what you see in real time. To everyone it looked blatant. The linesman should have flagged for it as he was right in front of the incident. Robertson lifted his leg into Hughes and caught him. Hughes made the most of it sure, but if you see that challenge anywhere else on the pitch, it's a foul and probably a red card.
     
  9. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    TTD now known as Sananda Francesco Maitreya.

    Leaves the Liverpool lad a clear run in the double barrelled Trent space.

    You sure the free kick was only 35 yards out?

    I recall it as near the halfway line.
     
  10. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Wheels on bricks opportunity?
     
  11. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Btw, what a fantastic player Robertson is.

    If you have to have a Scotsman, he’s the one.
     
  12. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Trench?

    Ha ha?
     
  13. Since63

    Since63 Squad Player

    Looking at it front-on in the Rookery it did look stonewall & nothing I've seen since has led me to think that the officials did not completely **** it up.
    Had we converted a penalty at that point, then Gracia's gameplan would have been right on track; we had done extremely well to keep such a potent attack so quiet up to that point that I think they may have struggled to break us down had we gone even more compact, eg if he had brought on Chalobah for Delo or Pereyra. At least I think there's a strong likelihood we'd have got a point.
     
  14. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    We’re recalling the loans?

    Ironic!
     
  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    How can you know what a player thinks? Does the referee interview him immediately after the foul? Like I say, you have to consider things in the moment, not afterwards once it's all reviewed and interviews are taken.

    You've got to give a decision based on what you see. From both angles of the referee and his assistant, it looked a blatant penalty. Afterwards, it can be discussed, but no one would have said anything had it been given. We all know, had it been the other way around, what would have happened.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  16. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    The ref should subject the alleged victim to a Larry David type stare.
     
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  17. Eastcoastorn

    Eastcoastorn First Year Pro

    We all knew that as soon as Moss was given the game it would be decided by one or more of his appalling decisions. Not sure there's any argument.
     
  18. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I agree with the sentiment of your post and most of what’s in it. But in regards to the specific question you’ve asked, my answer is that Hughes himself says he’s unsure. So that’s how I know what he’s thinking. If he’s unsure if it’s a penalty, he’s unsure he’s been fouled. Not every single piece of contact in the box has to be deemed a penalty.

    Now I’m not saying it wasn’t a penalty and that I wouldn’t have given it. I’m merely suggesting that there has to be doubt because the two players involved have cast doubt on it themselves - somewhat obviously in Robertson’s case.

    If this is a debate about it, you have to admit Hughes’ comments and his over-exaggerated fall to the ground haven’t exactly helped the argument for it being ‘stonewall’.
     
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    But you are going away from the point I'm making. The referee doesn't know the views of Hughes or Robertson at the time. He can only go on what he has seen. To everyone, including all the Liverpool players, they all thought it was a penalty. You can tell so much from instant body language.

    Anywhere else on the pitch, then it's not only a foul but a real risk of a red card. This is all I'm saying.

    In the cold light of day, yes, everything can be seen differently, but going on the type of penalties other teams tend to get, and using that as the measure, then it was stonewall.

    Like I said previously, Hughes has been very na*ve with his comments. If you line up what he's said against what Robertson has said about him, he's going to be labelled a diver. But this is a totally different argument. I'm just talking about the incident in real time, and what the referee or his assistant should have done. It looked like a penalty to everyone, including the Liverpool players, so it really should have been given.
     
  20. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    The fact that Hughes wasn't sure it was enough for a penalty suggests it wasn't a penalty. He has been "honest" rather than "naive" in making the comment post-match. There are no adverse consequences for his honesty other than it rather buggers up your view on the matter :)
     
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  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Then my apologies, I was indeed misunderstanding the point you're trying to make.

    In that case, I really wouldn't like to call it. From where I was sat, in real time, it looked a penalty. I don't take as much as you from the Liverpool players reaction as they may well have seen it as a 'dive' given Hughes' theatrical tumble afterwards - I know I certainly would have appealed that way as a defender. I just think it's more a sign of the modern game, certainly from the top teams, that players will back up their teammate in such circumstances regardless of contact.
     
  22. vic-rijrode

    vic-rijrode First Year Pro

    I may be a tadge biased but, in my view, every dubious tackle ever made on a Watford player in the opponents' penalty area should have been awarded as a penalty - ever since I started watching the Hornets. One of the reasons (amongst more pressing ones) that I stopped going regularly was the frequency with which our lads were bundled over in the box without anything ever being given.

    Then down at the other end in our box, a light sussuration of wind (usually from the opponents' fans after their pre-match imbibation), knocks over an opposing player and, before he hits the ground, a penalty is given and cards of various hues are waived at our players.

    It's just not fair......
     
  23. Beekayess

    Beekayess Reservist

    For three quarters of the game we matched a very good Liverpool side, without threatening too much. Penalty to us ? Maybe. Should Henderson have picked up a second yellow card before he did so ? In my opinion, yes.

    On the subject of the refereeing decisions - I genuinely don't think referees are consciously biased in favour of bigger teams against smaller ones. I think there is a sub-conscious fear of getting a decision wrong against a bigger team and having it exposed on MOTD / Sky Sports / back pages of the tabloids. For this reason I believe the smaller teams suffer at the hands of the referees.
     
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  24. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    On Ref Watch, Dermot Gallagher says on review it was a clear penalty. Case closed.
     
  25. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Thank God for that
     
  26. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    I don't agree. Being "honest" does you no favours in the cynical game of football. If a referee became aware that he is prepared to dive, then future incidents could be seen in a different light. He was touched and that is clear from the TV evidence. Why he says he's not sure is beyond me. Maybe he has a numb leg with no feeling, who knows.

    Even Dermot Gallagher said he would have given it, so that's the view from an ex-professional.
     
  27. wimbornet

    wimbornet Reservist

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  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    1 min Deulofeu latches onto a Deeney through ball. He races clear of the defence before scoring with a low shot. The linesman flags extremely late for offside, although the decision was correct.

    The sequence below shows, from the moment of the Deeney pass to when he flagged was 3 seconds. That is a long time to make a decision, even though it was correct. Not sure why he took so long to make a decision.

    upload_2018-11-26_11-57-21.png upload_2018-11-26_11-57-30.png upload_2018-11-26_11-57-44.png

    8 mins. This really shows how much we lack an instinctive striker. Allison makes a mess of playing the ball out of defence and Doucoure intercepts. The ball goes straight to Deeney, who is in loads of space. All he has to do is turn to have a free run on goal 1 v 1, but he elects to pass it to Deulofeu. Is this unselfish play or is he passing responsibility?

    Either way, the pass is not a good one and Deulofeu cannot get on the end of it and the best chance all afternoon is lost.
    upload_2018-11-26_11-58-11.png upload_2018-11-26_11-58-23.png

    38 min. This is Liverpool’s first shot at the Watford goal, and it’s a good one. Firmino makes the most of a half chance with a low stinging shot, which Foster does extremely well to dive to his right at full stretch and hold on to the ball. He made a difficult save look easy.

    38 min. The 38th minute was a lively one, as Watford broke quickly forward and Pereyra produces Watford’s only on target shot of the match with an instinctive outside of his left foot shot, a similar technique to the goal he scored at Wolves, but Allison produces a good save.

    40 min. Mane receives the ball under pressure and does well to get a shot on target. Foster is equal to it and makes a comfortable save. From the resultant corner, Salah finds himself totally unmarked at the back post. The header is a good one, but Foster makes a remarkably good save diving low to his right to keep the shot out.

    54 min. Hughes comes on to the ball in the penalty area, Robertson is drawn in and makes a high foot challenge. It looked a clear penalty, but the officials thought otherwise and nothing was given. A match changing decision.

    59 min. Henderson receives his first yellow card for a shove on Success.

    66 min. A fairly soft goal opens the scoring for Liverpool. Mane finds space down the Watford right flank. Cathcart moves towards the space in front of him, leaving his man Salah. This gives space to the Liverpool forward who makes a decent connection on the crossed ball. Cathcart tries to block but it goes through him and Foster reacts late. It looked saveable, but I suspect he saw it late and didn’t have enough time to react.

    75 min. A poor piece of play from Mariappa as he gets the wrong side of Firmino trying to intercept a lofted Henderson pass. He misses it and the ball bounces. He tries to retrieve the situation, but ends up fouling Firmino in the process. Alexander-Arnold and Salah take up their positions either side of the freekick, but Foster’s positioning is a little suspect. He is too far over to his right, leaving any shot in the top left-hand area of the goal unguarded. Unfortunately for Watford, this is exactly what happens, and the freekick is perfectly executed to put Liverpool 2-0 up.

    81 min. Foster quickly throws out the ball to Capoue. Henderson comes over and barges into him sending him flying. A clear second yellow and Henderson is sent off.

    84 min. A cross finds Success who turns and shoots, but scuffs his shot harmlessly off target. A decent chance though.

    86 min. Pereyra curls a long range shot wide.

    88 min. This is a really disappointing goal from a Watford point-of-view. Capoue goes to ground but misses Robertson who has a clear run on the Watford goal. He squares the ball to Mane. Foster produces a brilliant save, but the parry only falls to Firmino who heads in.

    upload_2018-11-26_11-58-57.png
    As you can see, as there are two Liverpool players and only one Watford defender, and they were down to 10 men. That should never have happened. I know it is late in the game and we were chasing it a bit, but we cannot allow that to occur.

    90 min. Cathcart heads just over the bar from a corner.
     
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  29. Sometimes you can tell from a player's immediate reaction - and sometimes the ref doesn't get a chance to interview him because of his reaction. And sometimes - well, very often - 'experienced' pundits are totally wrong.

    This is what Matt Le Tissier had to say about Henderson's second yellow and subsequent sending off - https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...1562563/le-tiss-henderson-second-yellow-harsh

    - totally ignoring what Henderson himself obviously thought when he walked off before the ref had even reached for his card.

    And no comment from Le Tissier on the penalty decision showed what he thinks as well...
     
  30. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I think there’s two arguments -

    1.) And the one we all agree on. It looked like a penalty and there were certain on-field indications that it should have been given. The most likely contributing factors to why it wasn’t was because of the way Hughes exaggerates contact - this is clear from the reverse replay and could contribute to Moss’ decision - what that doesn’t allow for however, is that that replay is slowed down. In normal time, the fall probably looks more natural, but still a bit forced. If totally honest, and some won’t agree - I don’t blame Moss so much as the linesman for the decision in REAL TIME.

    2.) The second argument is whether it actually was a penalty after reviewing it post-game. To me, the replays are fairly inconclusive but I would lean more towards it still being a penalty. But aside from that, it doesn’t really bother me too much what Dermot Gallagher or the talking heads on MOTD say - the biggest arguments come from the two players involved themselves. Robertson, somewhat predictably, says it was never a penalty. I would liked to have seen Hughes come out and strongly counter that viewpoint. But we shouldn’t ignore the fact that he hasn’t. He has clearly said he doesn’t know if it was a penalty and therefore reason says he can’t be sure if he was fouled.

    My own personal opinion is that it was a penalty in real time. But there’s been enough subsequent evidence to show why there would be doubt in the officials minds. But if it was a penalty, the linesman is far more at fault than Moss for this one individual decision - as much as I can agree that Moss in general is not up to standard of being a top level official.
     
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  31. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    How anyone can say that wasn’t clear cut two yellows is beyond me. Both fouls stopped attacks and were cynical. Even Klopp agreed. Dean Saunders said the same thing as Le Tissier.
     
  32. FromDiv4

    FromDiv4 Reservist

  33. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

  34. Roger Irrelevant

    Roger Irrelevant Reservist

    Jon Moss does not have the mental strength to be an impartial referee.

    If the Hughes penalty had been the other way he would have given it.

    He also took great delight in awarding Liverpool free kicks with a sickening flourish, you could tell he didn't get the same rush awarding us anything.

    Mark Hughes is right the smaller clubs get the rookies or incompetent refs, it is not a fair competition.
     
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  35. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    On the face of it in isolation the second booking was a bit harsh. However less than a minute earlier just before we took a free kick at their end Henderson was arguing with Moss so was probably on a final warning.
     

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