Walter Mazzarri - Ex Manager

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by wfcmoog, Jan 1, 2017.

  1. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I admire the positive spin you try and engineer, but let's not get carried away. Let's just be honest. We've played well against United & Everton. We were decent against Leicester and had an inspired comeback win at West Ham.....apart from that the performances have been dross and this is before the injuries.

    I think people look at those 4 games and place all their hope on that, when in reality the normal performance for this Watford side is the one against Hull, Stoke, Boro, Sunderland & Swansea. All these games were with a fully fit squad.

    The Premier League is ruthless, and you do not get the luxury of time. We have 19 more games to win 6. Take a look at our last 4 or 5 games this season, and you can see, we need to be safe well before then.

    This is why I say the next two games will dictate the future of our head coach.
     
  2. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Facts are facts if you write FACT. FACT.
     
  3. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Saying we were "dross" at Boro or Southampton and at home to Hull and Chelsea undermines your credibility. We've had up, down and average just like most other teams.
     
  4. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    We did get 7 points out of those games though.

    (I know what you will say: we didn't deserve to...)

    I share the anxiety about the manager. I know many feel that the language thing is a red herring but for me it feels like he just can't be bothered and if that's so, it might well rub off on the players.

    Another aspect troubles me too. Several posters are pinning their hopes on a fit squad, especially Success, Okaka and Pereyra. But we've hardly seen enough of the first two to know for certain that they will save us, assuming that they can stay fit for more than 5 minutes. And the latter hasn't exactly set the PL on fire, albeit he's better than Jurado (and if he does get fit, there surely won't be much of the season left).

    Still I guess it's the best we can hope for (or a transfer window signing or two who turn things around).
     
  5. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Bury your head as much as you can, an deny it all you like, but it doesn't go away. We've had far too many down days, and not enough up days.

    I've watched football for many years, and this may all be new to you, but the signs are obvious. You choose to ignore and that is fine, but in the real world the vast majority of Watford fans are not happy the way things are.
     
  6. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I'm not burying my head. I'm simply pointing out that you saying we have been good in 2 games, "decent" in 2 others and dross in every single other game is obviously nonsense of the highest order.
     
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Very good point. A lot are pinning hopes on a fully fit squad, but there's a reason why so many are getting injured. The training, the injury history of the player, maybe there are some that don't fancy it.

    There's no evidence that our injured will all come back and be injury free for a significant period of time. It was a tough break for Pererya, but most of the others constantly break down with injuries. Okaka, Success, Janmaat just cannot maintain any sort of fitness.

    We can hope for a couple of great signings, but until we change our mentality and become mentally strong and resolute on the pitch, it won't make too much difference. We are one of the easiest teams to score against and when you cannot keep a clean sheet, you know you have to score at least two to even have a chance of a win, which in itself creates a big mental problem for players and their belief.
     
  8. highgrade

    highgrade Reservist

    Away to Boro was probably our 5th best performance this year.Lol
     
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It was a case of two poor sides on the day. The only difference was Success. The performance level was Championship standard. We only had one shot on target and luckily for us that went in.

    The result was fantastic, but performance was poor. I think people forget the actual match and only look at the result. It was a game that could have gone either way. We could have lost it just as easily as we won it. I'm certain had we lost, the performance would have been viewed completely differently.

    Since that game, Boro have significantly improved, whereas we've only gone backwards. If we played them now, we'd get beaten....IMHO.
     
  10. highgrade

    highgrade Reservist

    But we did not lose and Holbas scored a stunner.Still one of the better moments of the season having traveled 8hrs+ that day,not that there has been many,the rest of the performances have been atrocious bar Man Utd,Everton,West Ham & Leicester.
     
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Which is exactly my point, although I used the word dross. I believe atrocious has the same meaning.
     
  12. highgrade

    highgrade Reservist

    If we get nothing tomorrow I reckon he will be gone.
     
  13. Loyalhornet

    Loyalhornet First Year Pro

    Isn't it just possible that if Mazarri had been able to name a consistent side and even possibly have had a fit okaka and success then we would have seen a few more of those Manchester United , West Ham, Everton type performances . This might mean we would still be sitting comfortably in the top ten and yes there may still be issues with inconsistency/ silly errors/ not clearing the ball, but I think you'd have to say we were doing well as a team currently in their second season back in the premier league.

    Isn't it also possible that we have actually made some progress from the quique era. Given that without the deeney / ighalo purple patch we'd never have been in anything other than a relegation fight . We have played better attacking football, have more players who can actually score and that matches aren't always over when we go one nil down . Yes this may be at the expense of some defensive solidity but that could be seen as progress .

    Isn't it also possible that we don't have huge issues with all our players and that our manager is able to communicate with them fairly well and that it's just that some of our players show some inconsistencies and lack of competition for places doesn't help this . But then this is a natural part of being a relatively small and I established premier league club.

    This is just an alternative view . Though of course it could all be Mazarri s fault, including the horrendous injury list, the rain yesterday and the fact he bacon rolls weren't served in time to get back for the second half.

    It's not as if any football manager should ever be allowed a bit of time to turn things around. Mourinho should have been sacked a few weeks ago when Utd fans were calling for it and it's a good job we sacked jokanavic when after a slightly unlucky 4 game losing streak ( back in 2014) lots of supporters were calling for him to be sacked , as he never would have turned it around and got us promoted . It just doesn't happen . We must sack Mazarri as that is the only way we can possibly avoid relegation.
     
  14. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It depends on the manner of defeat. Another Spurs performance and you could be right, but I think he'll be given at least until Boro. That's two more weeks to get some players back and maybe a couple of new signings.

    Winnable games look thin on the ground, but Boro is one of those we can and should win.
     
  15. Malteser

    Malteser Squad Player

    The depressing thing (yet obviously interesting from a debating point of view) is over the last 4 years we've had the same sort of discussions about Dyche (his first 4 months), Zola (his last couple of months), Joka (that 4 game losing streak) and QSF (February onwards and especially after the cup defeat). Neither Garcia nor Billy stuck around long enough for such a thread. Oh and who was that idiot on here that never liked Beppe much lol?!!

    Good lively debate, dividing the forum into two.

    As a wise man once said, it's deja vue all over again!!
     
  16. I am not putting a positive spin on the matter. I have very little to say that is positive because I think we are in a dangerous situation. Conversley, neither am I putting a negative spin on the matter: I am merely promoting the facts in a reaction against others spinning Quique's second half of the season as being part of our current problem.

    I understand if people want to get things off their chest by imagining or even believing the worst, but on a forum where they put their highly subjective arguments across as facts (not saying you are HB, I don't agree with you but you are simply going over the same old stuff I felt was delt with a month back) then it is not just fair for me to point out the flaws, it is my duty to do so.

    Our biggest problem is the injuries. Statistically, our poor form parallels the increase in injuries. That does not have anything to do with Quique, last season, or the price of meat.

    Those injuries are our biggest concern, and they need sorting out before we take any other drastic action, because if they continue, we will remain in trouble whoever is in charge.
     
  17. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I wouldn't blame Mazzarri for the rain, although I'll expect he'll use it as one of his future excuses.

    Your alternative view is a good one, and of course anything is possible. But you have to deal in realities. We have got a lot of injuries and that could well be down to his training methods, which is also possible.

    Even in that good performance against Everton, our defending was poor and we were lucky to survive a late penalty scare. The coach has not got to grips with the defensive side all season, and it's this basic fact which undermines everything he does.

    Hard working, strong and well organised is a basic requirement for a club like Watford. We are none of those things.
     
  18. highgrade

    highgrade Reservist

    He has had half the season and has not impressed me so far,A few good results,even the bottom 3 each year manage a few good results.I thought he was brought in so we started playing more attacking football.All I have seen most games is long hopefully balls players out of position all the time poor passing ,no game plan and some of the most boring football I have ever seen us play in recent years.
     
  19. Nnnn

    Nnnn First Team

    Back up to 12th. Mazarri in.
     
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

  21. I Blame Bassett

    I Blame Bassett Squad Player

    This is clearly the way forward.

    Abstain from competition and rise majestically up the table!,A footballing hibernation if you will,until all our players have mended.

    Some of course might argue that the hibernation began yesterday!
     
  22. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    If he does, I'm going to sue him. As he's made all the points I've been making for weeks! :]]
     
  24. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Don't know whether he reads the forum, but he is a confirmed Watford fan, so he's getting it from somewhere, perhaps even just his own opinions!
     
  25. If a Mirror journo gave me credit for an article they'd written on that toilet paper, I'd sue them for defamation!
     
  26. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Two things:

    1. I think if he gets rolled over by Stoke and Boro, with little effort or plan on display, then I do not think there will be many on here who think he should stay. Our reserves, whilst unused to each other, should at least be able to give 100% commitment and be able to compete in these games.

    2. You should play in the next game of Werewolf. I think you'd be a fun participant.
     
  27. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    I think it's a combination of:

    Trying to buy 'flair' players whom are not up to speed with the physical aspect of the game

    Another pre-season, where Walt seems to have been overdoing the tactical aspect of the game/ getting used to the players, rather than pushing on and making us fit and sharp

    Another start of the season where the manager has been looking for consistency in a squad he doesn't quite trust, rather than being happy to rotate

    Bad luck/ phenomenally good luck last season

    Lots of new players trying too hard to impress

    **

    That is why I think a few experienced heads, who are used to the physicality of English football, will sort us out.

    It's hopefully becoming clear to the hierarchy: although we can gamble on one or two excellent talents (i.e. Success) who might be more likely to pick up injuries, securing homegrown talent with reduced risk of injuries is vital - even if it is at a greater cost.

    We now need quality, not quantity.
     
  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    All good valid points, but we are playing against time. The owners are all too aware we cannot afford to be sucked into a relegation battle, as we do not have players with that kind of fight in them.

    Two good results in the next two games and it all goes away. Mazzarri gets the time a new coach needs, but two loses and fear will almost certainly trigger his departure.
     
  29. No offence, but you have been saying this for a couple of months now, and if you were to do it on every occasion we lost, which since November has pretty much been the case, you are likely to get it right eventually.

    So far, despite your pessimism, Walter is still here. So in that respect he has proven you wrong, in that the previous six or seven games didn't prove quite so pivotal, so yet again you are predicting the next two games could cost him his job, and that the Pozzos will get rid of him and attempt to lure a Prem class manager here, despite having got rid of the last one when he had an injury ravaged squad. Unless they have a prior agreement, the chances of us getting a half decent manager in those circumstances is pretty slim.

    If we do not sort out the injuries, and give Walter a fair chance to prove that getting us up to seventh was not an accident before getting rid of him, we are going to end up with no-one but the desperate.

    The injuries are everything at the moment, and we will struggle under any head coach unless we sort them out, whether Walter is poop or not.
     
  30. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I've not said it once actually. I know you and a few others want to paint me as some anti-horn, but it's the first time I've said I think he'll be gone categorically if we lose by a certain time (cue UEA searching every post I've ever made to prove me wrong :]] ) To say anything else is just folly, but then that's all you've really got to come back with, as even you know the tide is turning, as the predictable situation is playing out to its obvious conclusion.
     
  31. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I was away in Devon with no internet for four days. Was at the beach during the game so saw the score but wasn't aware how we played although had a feeling this place maybe a little disappointed!!!!
    I haven't read the match thread but I gather from this one that we just didn't compete which is simply not acceptable. I would not like to see Mazarri go though. No matter what anybody says, injuries have hampered us all season. Looking at the players missing yesterday and you could argue that at least 6, maybe more would have started yesterday. That's 60% of the outfield players and a club our size is going to struggle to cope with that many missing. In fact take 6 starting players out of any team and they will struggle.
    I hate the constant change of manager. Those players letting us down get yet another reprieve. I would rather play one of the kids than Capoue currently but he's not the only player not pulling their weight. The problem I see now is that expectation is probably too high. We have been between 7th and 14th all season and with a win tomorrow, however unlikely that might be, we will be 9th and 11, yes 11 points from the bottom 3. Apparently performances matter more than the league table. Rubbish. Leicester were not the best team to watch last season and we were awful to watch at times but we both got the job done. We are still a new team to this league and it takes time to get yourself settled but we've done it with QSF and Wally yet the way they get talked about is up there with Vialli and Bassett which is astonishing.
    Injury crisis happens to everybody at some point so I don't believe we do much wrong it's just unlucky. Stoke is going to be hard but at least there is a break from league football to allow us to get some players back or get some signed up.
    I think Mazarri is doing ok in difficult circumstances but there are a few players who might want to take a long hard look at themselves.
    For some reason I'm going tomorrow night which might be why I'm trying to take a positive outlook!!
     
  32. I'm sorry, you have predicted it at least twice, both times after losing games, and both times you defended yourself quite strongly.

    I don't think you are an anti horn, and I don't believe I have ever said you are wrong for saying what you say, only that you seem to take the most negative possible view of the situation, and sometimes use evidence that does not support your point of view to say it.

    If the tide is turning now, it is because now may be the time for it, but like I said to you a month or so back, it seemed too early to be so pessimistic back then.Edit, Aithough I have recognised that momentum is growing against Walter, it is because of injuries, fan negativity and his failure to grasp English, not because of his ability as a head coach, by which I am recognising the reality of the situation, rather than suggesting I think he should go. I think that is rather unfortunate in itself.

    We are not in disagreement about what may happen if Walter is not up to the job; as I have said, everyone knows the Pozzo policy, its just that you have been strongly suggesting Walter's demise for a long time now, and there is a good chance you may get it right soon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  33. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Can you post these, as I do not recall ever saying he will be gone by a certain time before. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

    I do not want the coach to be sacked even. I want to see him succeed, but I don't think he will. Outside of this "bubble" everyone is saying it. I seem to be the only person on here that has a strong view. It may not be popular, but it's always honest.

    I don't post things just to get a high total of "likes" as some do. It's easy to try and trip someone up, to try and devalue their point. But my words ring true, they always do, whether you like it or not.

    If we lose playing like we did against Spurs in the next two games, I believe he will be gone. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption. If we win the next two, then happy days, he will stay and be given more time. This is what I'd like to see happen, but I do not think it will.
     
  34. Grover

    Grover First Year Pro

    These require Zero talent

    1) Being on time
    2) Work ethic
    3) Effort
    4) Body language
    5) Energy
    6) Attitude
    7) Passion
    8) Being Coachable
    9) Doing extra
    10) Being prepared

    Play for the badge on the front of the shirt and they shall remember the name on the back.
     
  35. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Although I have not been impressed with Mazzari's first 19 games, god knows what people would be saying if we were 17th today on 16 points! As said above some good results and performances, but no better than last seasons wins at Stoke or home at Liverpool. But the expectations this year are higher, the squad is stronger having shed players from the promotion year that are not setting the championship alight this year. Both the club hierarchy and fans expect more this year. Certainly Walter's lack of public personality Toward the fans has not helped either. Last year the most sung chant was for the manager, each away game he came over to applaud the away fans (the ones who IMHO that lead fans opinion of players and manager). Again this seasons woeful performances are on par with last seasons away matches at Southampton and Norwich. If Quique had won the semi final and two more games and the wins had been evenly spread across the season I think he would have got a second year. I think Mazzari will limp to the end of the season and will only lose his job if we have fewer than 6 points gap between ourselves and 18th by the end of January. Our January games I doubt we will get anything from Arsenal, and home to Middlesbrough and away matches against Stoke and Bournemouth are not great for a team and supporters lacking confidence
     

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