Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by wfcmoog, Jan 1, 2017.
Things are not just getting tough now though are they. We have been awful since the Man Utd win.
Where I have I blamed the performance of fit players on injuries?
If the fit players aren't to the standard of those they are replacing (and I believe on current form, 6 of those out injured would be in the first 11), then injuries have had a fairly sizeable impact. Even more so when you then have zero ability to change anything because the bench is littered with youth team players.
I have already noted how poor today's performance was regardless, but if you think the addition of Britos, Berhami, Janmaat, Pererya, Okaka and Success through the spine of that team, wouldn't have had an impact on our team performance and the score line (let alone the depth then available on the bench), then I'm struggling to believe you.
Spot on. Obviously we are struggling because we are missing the new players that have improved us from last season (Pereyra, Janmaat, Success and Okaka) but these are players who were additions to what we already had, and the vast majority of what we already had were on the pitch today. Bar Doucourre they are all regular starters, so there is no excuse for them.
You said we had a 'big enough squad to deal with these situations' yet when I say there's not enough quality in depth you say I'm "stating the obvious". Which is it?
And I think you're arguing with yourself on the last bit. I didn't say don't recall him. I just pointed out his current and past form in Holland is not a great indicator of his likely impact in the PL. Of course it's better for us at he's doing well there but it didn't translate into an awful lot last time out.
I never said they were. What's your point?
Mazzari isn't up to it.
The points we have on the board mask the fact that we have been pretty dire for most of this season. Aside from the odd decent win, it's been crap. The players we have seem to be incapable of carrying out the most basic of footballing tasks. I really do think we will go down as the 18th placed team. Sunderland are awful, but they turned us over. Swansea, getting done every week, we scraped a draw and Swansea were left scratching their heads how they didn't win. Hull, we nicked a win. If we played any of the bottom 3 now we would be beaten. Yes we have a massive injury crisis, but the players we have are not good enough, and worse, they don't even seem to be bothered. We need a good 5-7 players in this window, and we need them to be able to play and not be injured after 1 or 2 games. I really don't know what Gino needs to do, because at the moment we look like a league 2 team that's been miraculously propelled in the Premier League for a season.
Because he can't make the players care once we go into a slump? What makes you think the next man will be able to do that when everyone before him has failed?
Whether or not the players lack passion in hard to tell, however if the showed the sort passion today like the fans show every game we wouldn't have watched such a dire performance as we did this afternoon!
No, it is you missing the point.
My point is that, regardless of our injuries, almost all of the players that took to the field are there, or there abouts, the first team. Yet they were embarrassingly terrible. Many internationals, many years of experience and all earning plenty of money to encourage them to try their best. Yet they were absolutely woeful. Keep it up and we will soon see how they play when they see the threat of relegation over their shoulders. let's see how the threat of playing against Rotherham motivates them.
We are clutching at straws to suggest that injured regulars like Behrami or Britos, or even Pererya would have made a massive difference, just look at some of the comments made about their performances over the past few months. Then, to be certain that Okaka or Success would have made the difference, when we have only seen me them play play about 180 minutes between them in 5 months, is delusional.
Exactly that - it's big enough that it should cope,nothing said about quality. The fact is that vast % of the players played were mainly first or verge of first team players.
Re Berghuis, why split hairs.. I'm saying he's doing well, bring him back. Not saying hes going to revolutionise the squad single handed, mainly add some midfield quality that's required right now & possibly with his confidence can galvanise it along the way.
How can a manager be blamed for Deeney coming back from pre season three stone over weight, Ighalo refusing point blank to make any runs and an injury list that means it's virtually impossible to drop either. It must be utterly demoralising to realize that as a midfielder you can be as creative or combative as you wish, but at some point you have to play it to one of them.
Mazzarri in, deadwood players out.
Isn't the idea of pre-season to get players fit? I think a lot of the things Mazzarri is being blamed for are unfair, but it was clear to see that pretty much the entire squad were nowhere near fit enough during the first month or so of the season.
I can't help but worry every time we play the 3 centre backs against any team that has mobile wide players. Each time we do it leads to the back 3 getting caught out by wide players who are quicker and more mobile. The formation can clearly work as other teams use it effectively but we clearly don't have the right players to successfully fill the required slots. The frustrating thing is we don't defend well, our midfield don't look like creating anything and the forwards lack any service. At one point today Deeney had come back to win the ball on the wing, played a pass and the ball was punted forward, but as Deeney had come back to win the ball no one was up front!! The basic control of the ball is missing, we bypass an ineffective midfield quickly to get the ball upfield and as such there is no support in the final third for knock downs or to get onto second balls. This month is an important one as failure to collect points against the likes of Middlesborough and Bournemouth who in fairness are looking like teams we may struggle against on current form will ultimately shape how we are positioned for the final push. Failure to bring in quality players to fit into this formation if we do plug away with it or to change tactically to suit our opposition won't see us necessarily in a relegation battle, but it will make it a little more of a squeaky bum time experience
This may have been said already but I wonder how bad things have to get before the Pozzos consider giving Guidolin a call to replace Mazzarri.
He now has Premiership experience and did relatively well with a weak Swansea squad and I think he is out of work at the moment.
We were doing fine until the worst injury crisis I can remember in 40 years in kicked in - we were 7th a couple of weeks ago don't forget. Unless Walter's to blame in some way (which personally I doubt) I'm not sure why he deserves the sack. And unless a new bloke is going to somehow magic them all back to health suddenly I don't see what he's going to do anyway.
The interview he has given is a joke saying that Watford are on target for what they need to achieve this season when he took over which is to just stay up.He is gutless and has had zero impact on the team.Surely the aim was to achieve more than we did last season with all the money that's been spent regardless of the injures.The effort that has been given by the players recently is disgraceful they look like the just don't care and are here just to pick up there pay cheque.I feel after that today we are heading for big trouble and can't see how we are going to get out of it.
I'm willing to give him more time however his reluctance to change from 3 at the back is similar to QSFs reluctance to change formation plus it is annoying that he always uses a translator. Conte seems to be doing alright. All I want is a string of committed performances from the team. Win lose or draw. I'm fed up with these pedestrian "don't give a ****" performances.
At least with our previous managers under the Pozzos we seemed to have continuity in the coaching set up/ structure. Mazzarri came with a team and introduced quite a few changes - so we're not just talking about one person. What I find most worrying is the number of our players, who we know can play, who look uncertain about what they should be doing and just make bad decisions or take too much time to think about what they need to do next. In recent games there has definitely been a lack of clear communication between players on the pitch, and you have to ask if this is an issue with the way Mazzarri and his team communicate to the players ...
I'm with Moog. He has to go. I see absolutely nothing from this team of bottlers to suggest they're playing for him whatsoever.
Get rid and get someone in we can trust to spend a bit of money and get some players into the steady the ship.
He named a line up today with 4 at the back.
I couldnt agree more.
I'm by no means his biggest fan, but I do think we're slowly moving in the right direction with Mazzarri, or at least we were before this freakish spate of injuries.
It's worth remembering just how negative Quique was last season, the way that he bludgeoned the expression and individuality out of all of our players and the way that he divided the squad. This is not something that can be fixed quickly and is a lengthy process, made even more complicated by the large number of players who have come in and out since the end of last season.
Just look at Mourinho at Man Utd after replacing van Gaal for example. He said himself how much of a problem it was and how he had to practically reprogram the players and repair their confidence one by one and they are only starting to look like a decent, attacking side again now.
Of course there's stuff he could be doing better and setting up with 3 centre backs with quick, attacking opposition like Spurs is suicide, but it's worth bearing the above in mind, especially when a lot of our issues seem to stem from being poor going forward.
I'm definitely not calling for Walter to go as it stands, but I am at the same time concerned by the fact that you can say we are fairly consistently playing really quite badly and have been for some time.
I do think the translator stuff is ridiculous by this point, he must be able to speak good enough English, especially when added to this phantom year in Manchester. That is something of a red herring for me, though. I don't think he'll suddenly have us playing 100% committed gegenpressing by changing the language he speaks to the media and some players in.
What really does concern me is the noise that is still coming out from media sources that the Pozzos are reluctant to spend in January. Even this weekend WDSport were reporting that we are really only looking to reinforce in midfield this window, and that they don't feel there is value in the January market. Whilst we drastically need midfield reinforcement, it's far from the only area, and it doesn't really f ucking matter if they don't consider it good value, we need several new players who can come in and are ready to play, particularly if players like Watson are just not going to be involved. I do not think that we will be relegated as it stands, based upon the evidence we have so far, but if this scenario was to get any worse, then it could become a legitimate possibility. We need to bring in the right players in the right positions to stop that possibility arising.
It's hard to believe how useless Capoue has become, and how little he does. Instead of grubbing around looking to bring in an odd job like Hernanes, undeniably talented as he can be, we most desperately need to be spending money to bring in a true defensive midfielder and a true replacement for Capoue. If we don't spend some money on those it might end up costing us a great deal more.
We have also frankly lost any creativity that we had now that the Bat seems to be injured/is off to the AFCON, and we simply cannot rely on Success. He's available for, what, less than a full game in every 5? We have no attacking play, and Deeney and Iggy's slumps are so incredibly pronounced it's hard to believe. We have to reinforce in attack in some way, or we are inviting a storm to come crashing down around us.
Speaks English as well. Give him the job initially until the end of this season.
Its stupid to get rid of Walter now. We finished 13th last year and we are 13th now. Our squad is stronger this season than last season but the injuries have stopped us building any momentum and have robbed us of quality.
However, for those who think Walter will sort out our defensive issues because hes Italian then forget it. A pundit on Talksport who watches Italian football said Walter is good at building a side to attack but always struggles with the defensive side of the game. Walter is no Conte and we dont have the players to play 3-5-2 so we ought to change it if its not working. We brought in Walter to make Watford more entertaining. Due to injuries to Janmaat, Pereyra, Okaka and Success we are relying on last season's double act of Deeney and Ighalo who are out of their depth at Premier league level at the moment. Is there no end to the Deeney and Ighalo myth? Even on the commentary today on Sky they kept going on about Deeney looking to flick the ball to Ighalo. Trevor Sinclair on MOTD earlier this season said ' Ighalo is Watford's star player'. We should have accepted any offers above £20 million for Ighalo in the summer because we wont get £5 million for him now.
Walter not speaking English by now is insane. I think most posters on here could lead some basic Italian within a few months. Alberto Conte also didnt speak any English before this season but was speaking English straight away. Maybe Walter is lazy and the other players look to him as a role model and put in lazy performances on the pitch. Walter also likes to moan with excuses when we lose. Maybe our team on the pitch - as usually happens- is starting to reflect the manager.
Absolutely disagree, Mazzarri can't atone for the players to not do what you learn as kids and pass the ball more than 3 times in a row. He's got as comparable results to last year in a much better style, despite losing 3 of our flairest players
If anything its the medical team to blame as well as the scouting team for not spotting how injury prone everyone is
Walters' USP was his track record at improving forward players - well he's not afraid of proving people wrong! Last seasons first choice strikers look no better than before; Amrabat still looks more like to grow a full head of hair this year than score a goal. His regime has seen neither Okaka or Success able to play two 90 minutes in succession. Sinclair probably would have been better off going to a leading championship club. Yes capoue has already hit his full season average of goals, but like last year he gives up after October. A poor performance at Stoke and in the cup and you can see Gino thinking "Walter won't get six more wins this year", and " I backed him to do a lot more than this" - Rumours that other managers seen about the directors box
Injuries don't just take players from the starting 11, which they have done in abundance. They also remove competition for places, and reduce the impact a manager can make through substitutions.
So yes. I think Capoue has been sluggish and lazy for weeks because he needs competition. I think Holebas needs a rest, and to be swapped early when he does not look up for a match.
Injuries have meant that Prodl and Cathcart have barely played together over the last few months, so their poor relationship and communication on the pitch was to do with injuries, and a lack of match fitness for Cathcart.
Amrabat has been a man possessed in recent weeks, and I think the burden on him is starting to take its toll. He looks less sharp and would probably be more sharp if Success was on the other wing, rather than having to run half the pitch himself during every play that doesn't involve hoofing it to Deeney.
If Okaka and Success were fit, I'd argue that both Deeney and Iggy wouldn't be on the pitch right now, and we wouldn't see how bad they are.
I think this is an apt quote from a book I'm reading at the moment:
For almost their whole time here the Pozzos have given a clear impression that the head coach is on a hair trigger. I strongly believe this has given rise to two of the most troubling behaviours we see in the squad today - the petulant ill-discipline and the give up when the going gets tough mentality. Both were imported in 2012/13 and have grown unhindered since because there's no continuity at the top. I still remember clearly Troy talking about how the players had to really stick together in the promotion year while coaches came and went. I wonder if that power behind the throne was ever really disbanded? There was a time when it was clearly needed but did anyone ever wind it back in again?
We were told when Wally signed that he was someone the Pozzos have been after for three years. He has clearly been given license to bring in his own people and by implication to sort things out and after the insipid performances we've been treated to in some of the recent matches I'm starting to wonder if certain players now see the writing on the wall. Injuries have pulled some temporarily back into first team contention but there's a transfer window open now and they're in danger of seeing their Premier League cash cow come to an end. I hope he's given time to sort thing out, shift some deadwood and kill off the negative behaviours that thrive in background. I think over the next 2-3 windows we'll see some big beasts leave. I know some will say 'But surely if they know their place is at stake they'd try harder?' but I don't think there's a lot of hard-working likeable personalities in this squad and I suspect most of the biggest terds don't really care.
And the writer of the quote? Alex Ferguson. I think he knows his stuff.
You're on a roll today Mike!
Woah, there's cause and effect you say? Don't confuse him.
I think if we ever get to a point when we can drop Capoue, unfortunately he doesn't strike me as the type of person who will be motivated by being dropped, probably quite the opposite in fact.