VAR decisions

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. The laws over the past few years have always seemed to favour the attacking side, making for a more quick and entertaining game.

    VAR is definitely more in favour of the defending team and is killing the entertainment.

    Marginal toenail offsides.

    A defender accidentally handballs in the area and not a penalty (like our blatant goalbound free kick v Brighton), but an attacker accidentally graises the ball with an arm hair and goals are disallowed.

    I was always an advocate for VAR as I thought it would level up the playing field for top 6 team bias, but it's really awful and I'd be happy to go back to a non-VAR world.
     
  2. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I agree with you, but VAR is not the problem. The mindless way they are using it is. I knew the FA would screw this up.

    I think they should review nothing and leave it down to the manager or captain to ask for a review. Both sides have two reviews per match but lose them if unsuccessful. A referee can also ask for a review if he's uncertain over a key event, but he has to initiate that himself.
     
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  3. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    You've blamed the FA a couple of times but VAR protocols are set by IFAB and are part of the laws of the game:

    http://www.theifab.com/laws/chapter/5

    There's a little bit of flex around the edges - like how much emphasis is put on-field officials reviewing the telly at the side of the pitch - but the FA can't change the whole thing themselves.
     
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  4. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    The GD penalty shout on Saturday wasn't a penalty for me. Mina didn't touch the ball but I can't see that he touched GD either, and we all know he is prone to taking a tumble. Certainly wasn't a corner though.

    The decision over the weekend I'm baffled by is the non award of a penalty to City. A stonewall penalty, clearly and obviously.

    As I've said before, the refs in the PL are poor. Sticking one in front of a TV doesn't stop him being a poor ref. Getting some decent referee's in the league would make a far bigger difference than VAR.
     
  5. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    An organisation that call themselves I FAB tells you all you need to know.

    Well they are a variant of the FA aren't they? Still have FA in their name, which means the exact same thing.
     
  6. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    This is the biggest problem. The quality of the officials. We've had four of the worst already in Madley, Pawson, Friend and Mason. All are dreadful officials. The other ones we've not had yet is Moss, Probert and Taylor. So I guess we'll get a couple of those on Saturday.

    The best referees by a mile are Atkinson, Dean and Marriner. Micheal Oliver is actually a decent referee in terms of knowing the rules and controlling the match in a good way, but he loves to create a controversial situation. Last minute penalties are his thing, so I just don't trust someone who does that.

    The quality is just not there.
     
  7. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Can anybody answer my question? Why wasn't Jesus' 'goal' at Wet Spam not immediately disallowed due to him being miles offside when the free-kick was taken? Sterling's toes needn't have come into it at all.
     
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    It's not an offence to be in an offside position on its own. Having not seen the Brighton incident yet though I don't know how the two incidents compare.
     
  9. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I've been saying it for years, the biggest problem refs have is that players/coaches/clubs cheat. They set out to fool the refs, and no matter how good a referee is, he will get fooled on many occasions. Of course, just as in any profession, there will be some referees better than others, but we cannot expect them all to be superhuman.

    "He was touched, and is therefore entitled to go down," attitude, is also a contributing factor. Pundits on TV are as much to blame as the players and referees, and maybe their experience as a player where they probably did exactly that when they could have stayed on their feet, is pretty damning in my opinion.

    In my view players should be doing their best to stay on their feet. I played football for 20 years in that manner, and never thought of falling over to win a free kick, it never occurred to me. It was at a much lower level, but relatively speaking I still wanted to win every game.

    We have to get away from this accepted attitude that players should cheat their way to decisions, and refs are expected to spot the difference between genuine and cheating, at breakneck speed and in a pressured atmosphere. That is impossible. Let's stop blaming referees, and start to help them instead.

    So, lets get rid of this cheating culture. For me, VAR has an equally important role, and that is to identify cheating, and action should be taken against the cheats, whether the referee witnessed the incident or not. Maybe the referee should view the footage and explain why he didn't take action at the time, but the incident should be examined, in my view, even if it takes a dedicated panel all week to go over the previous weekends incidents. It is that important.

    There should be a clear announcement from the FA that cheating will not be tolerated. Then action taken. I think, for example, a clear dive with no contact from Pereyra on Saturday, and he should be punished (maybe 4 games), but Dele's probably not as it was not clear, probably not punished. But he should be aware that the incident was examined for the potential cheating.

    A side benefit, is that over a relatively short period of time, such scrutiny will identify which referees are better than others, where extra training is needed, etc.

    A few months of zero tolerance would sort it out.
     
  10. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    OK. The most important similarity for me is that neither Jesus or Burn were the first 'attacker' to play the ball at the free kick. In the first instance Sterling played the ball first and then passed it to Jesus and in the second A.N. Other Brighton player played it first/ headed it on? to Burn. So Jesus and Burn were the second player to play the ball in both instances.

    Therefore, if Burn's position at the free-kick was critical (offside) then why couldn't Jesus' position at the free kick (miles offside) be examined too?

    If it had have been they could have got on with the match a whole lot quicker.
     
  11. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    I agree with all of that. The 'professional foul', as promoted by TV pundits as being OK (or even desirable), is also cheating. And a bit of 'zero-tolerance' will change habits very quickly.

    Video evidence is of course already used to punish the guilty post-match though. But perhaps not frequently enough.

    What I'm concerned about is that the VAR will use the default of backing the ref's original decision too frequently. What is 'clear and obvious' to everyone else will be denied by the VARs in a misguided attempt to protect their own collective. Our 'penalty denied' on Day 1 may well turn out to be a classic example. Everyone else thought it was a pen. But the VAR decided to stick with his colleague.

    The argument that if the VAR recommends overturning too many original decisions, it will make referees look poor is ridiculous. They will continue to look equally poor if everyone else can see they got it wrong (as has been the case for yonks and through no fault of their own - they're only human in real time) and if the VAR is seen to back them up in getting it wrong then that will simply bring the VAR into disrepute as well.

    Now that the officials have very similar video technology to what's been available to everyone else, post-incident for years, kindly use it properly. Don't try and be overly protective of some sort of officials' cabal. Doing that would be just so, so obvious.
     
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  12. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    I agree with this. The best thing the top brass could have done to aid the game would have been to clamp down on the out and out cheating in its various formats.

    Take a dive anywhere on the pitch - straight red and a five game ban. Do it again and you get that punishment plus a two point team penalty. Then four points, then six...It would stop overnight.

    Incapable of putting a ball in a corner quadrant? The second you kick it from outside it becomes a goal kick.

    Take more than 20 seconds to take a goal kick? Indirect free kick to the opposition.

    Instead the only laws that have been changed are the ones that make no difference such as the way to kick off.

    The biggest issue is the PL are sh!t scared of upsetting the big six and will protect them from anything they don't want.

    The sooner a European super league happens the better.
     
  13. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I think it’s this, coupled with the mindset from officials that it’s increasingly a non-contact sport. Any firm but fair contact is seen as reckless endangerment so the officials take the line that ever decreasing levels of contact constitute a foul. The players know this and behave accordingly. Not saying that’s right though. Just not surprising.

    Give the players an atmosphere where they can manipulate outcomes, and you better believe they will take them.
     
  14. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Actually I think players pretty much always do put in the quadrant. How many times do you see a lino. go and stand right over the ball to see if the whole circumference is outside the quadrant? Never? Which is what they'd really have to do to be sure.

    No, what they do is stand behind the corner flag, see a bit of grass between ball and line and say it's outside the quadrant. Which it isn't necessarily.

    Goal-line technology illustrates the 'whole circumference over the line' thing perfectly.
     
  15. Simple solution would be to change the law to make sure that corner kicks are taken from INSIDE the quadrant and that the ball is not even touching the line either.
     
  16. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Why is another 'solution' required? The 'solution' is for the linos to take the time to do their job properly under the existing, long-standing, laws.

    Your new 'solution' would go a long way to helping the corner-taker boot the bottom of the corner flag instead of the ball though. Which could be fun.
     
  17. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    What a great post. You’ve nailed it.

    A story:
    Back in the early days of the Premier League (mid-90s), when there were fewer overseas players in our game, Spurs signed a diminutive winger called Jose Dominguez. One of his first appearances was at Anfield where he tried an outrageous dive to try and win a free kick. The Liverpool crowd actually laughed loudly at him, the message being: “Don’t be so daft, we don’t do that here.”
    Unfortunately, over the years, that attitude has been lost in our game and we have taken up the approach that fooling the referee to get an advantage is a skill and an asset, which was never part of our culture. This is because it was not stamped out from the start by strong refereeing with the use of yellow and red cards and suspensions. I find it very sad that we have to accept our own Watford players, be they British or foreign, adopting the same cheating tactics so that they are not taken advantage of.
     
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  18. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Ray Winstone?

    VAR seems confusing, annoying & dull.

    Quite a feat.
     
  19. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Great story, only somewhat weakened by the fact he'd already played for Birmingham City before Spurs.

    But yes, as an overall point, bloody foreigners is a good one.
     
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  20. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

  21. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Nah, Deeney runs the club.
     
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  22. Dreadnought

    Dreadnought MMC 2010/11 Prediction league 3rd 2011/12

    I’ve watched the Brighton incident and don’t believe any other player touched the ball before Burn did so it was the correct decision to give the offside against him.

    I also agree that in the Jesus incident just because the ball was passed back to him when he was onside should not negate the fact that he ‘gained’ an advantage by standing offside before the play reached him.
     
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  23. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Wolves goal given after VAR v Man U.

    Was a stunner so would have been
    harsh to rule out!

    Attacker maybe have had a shoulder offside ..

    Moss will probably be banned from Man U games now .
     
  24. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    OK. Could have sworn someone else played it first. Anyway, as you suggest, Jesus was offside too. At the free kick.
     
  25. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    It is possible for a player to lose balance when running fast and having some form of contact without it being a penalty OR a dive. That’s how I saw GD incident on Saturday. Would have been a soft penalty, but you can imagine at least one like that will be given this season.
     
  26. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I don’t think that is how current interpretation works if you get the call in phase 2?
     
  27. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

  28. BusheyOrn

    BusheyOrn Reservist

    Good news, we have the excellent Aussie ref doing VAR for the West Ham match.
     
  29. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Yep....as England's buffoons are incapable of even working the remote control, you have to go to that great footballing nation, Australia, to import someone who knows what he's doing.
     
  30. BusheyOrn

    BusheyOrn Reservist

    Have you watched his miked up ref performance on utube? The first of the modern refs we will hopefully get in this country.
     
  31. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Depending which day it is HB1 may or may not have seen the video and may or may not think he's a decent referee.
     
  32. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Absolutely right and if you are running at speed the slightest touch can bring you down. I have issue with players who go down, clearly not touched and clearly looking to fool the ref. As mentioned in this thread, if this was dealt with severely, 3 game bans or more, then this would disappear overnight. Time wasting from keepers could be dealt with quickly as well. One warning then a yellow card for a second offence. How often does a keeper get booked for time wasting 30 minutes from the end of the game? Has it ever happened? It's always in the 90th minute. I would rather league had sorted these issues before VAR
     
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  33. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Here we go again folks. See what I mean? Do you hb1, have a considered view on cricket umpires? Ever been in a VAR room? Or is the Catalan hot-air balloon in danger of leaving the stratosphere? Man marking at its finest.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  34. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    I agree. But 'sorting these issues' can work in tandem with VAR.
     

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