VAR decisions

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  2. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    Long sleeve shirts all round then.

    How does football contrive blurriness from rules intending to clarify?
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  3. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Exactly, and the daft thing is: this has always been the rule. Ball against shoulder has never been handball.
     
  4. R4E

    R4E Reservist

    Can we add Sheffield United's disallowed goal against Villa this evening to the list of VAR **** ups that have gone against us?
     
  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    PGMOL said the VAR couldn't intervene as the ref hadn't signaled a goal so there could be no check.

    Sounds like one of those silly rules that does VAR no favours at all.
     
  6. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Will be a disastrous situation if Villa survive by a point and Sheffield Utd miss out on European football by two points. Shambles. Let’s get rid of all this technology and go back 100% relying on the match officials to foxtrot up the game.
     
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Absolutely. VAR is supposed to be there to rectify mistakes.
    I’d also be interested to know if the ref claims he couldn’t see the ball was over the line. He could surely overrule the lack of a buzzing watch. How far over the line would it have to be before he did that?
     
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The trouble is when you have a system which has proven itself accurate down to 10mm it would take a brave ref to overrule it. Probably more likely to disbelieve their eyes than the magic watch on their wrist.
     
  9. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well unless it was clear cut they cannot just guess really.

    And he has trusted it to work many times before.

    Mind you that hasn't had stopped them before for decisions!
     
  10. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    This would have some credibility had VAR not been invented, but it has. How come the decision was not overturned? Everyone can see the ball had crossed the line. The VAR official MUST HAVE SEEN IT also, but decided to let it ride. That in my book is blatant match fixing.

    In the heat of the moment, I can understand something being missed. Even a perfect system like hawkeye I believe could get something wrong eventually, but I do not believe it is possible for ALL match officials, goal line technology and VAR to have all missed it. The keeper was standing behind his line with the ball in his hands for 5 or 6 seconds. It wasn't as if it was a fleeting moment. Nothing was obscured. We didn't need to freeze frame to the millisecond in order to see this. It's just ridiculous to justify this as just a big error. It was a deliberate act of trying manipulate a result. Probably the most blatant example yet.
     
  11. dsr

    dsr Academy Graduate

    Why would the league want to bribe a large number of officials to make this match a 0-0 draw? Why not at least have a few goals and a winner?

    Do you believe that a referee with the wrong angle would accept Hawkeye is expected to be right?
    Do you believe that a lineman 40 yards away would accept Hawkeye to be right?
    I will ignore any fanciful idea that the other linesman or the fourth official would be expected to see it.
    Do you believe that the VAR man thought that it was Hawkeye's decision, not his?
     
  12. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  13. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Wasn’t there the zoom-in close up Hawkeye technology to show if the ball has crossed the line?
    The technology surely accurately estimates where the ball is from 7 camera angles, even if each camera cannot see all of the ball.
    upload_2020-6-17_23-54-23.jpeg
    Commentators on 5 live in the stands thought it was over the line.
    The keeper held the ball in goal against the BACK of the post.
    Isn’t the VAR man supposed to look and use his brain as well as his eyes?

    Edit: pic above obviously not from tonight’s game, just showing how the technology is normally used by virtual zooming of camera.
     
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  14. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I can accept some of the possibilities, but when it's all strung together, it's not possible for them to get this decision wrong. Or rather, it's not possible for them to make a mistake. The only way they could not award a goal is if someone wanted that to happen.

    This game had SIX match officials. Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis. It had VAR, it had Hawkeye with it's 7 different camera angles.

    A goalkeeper standing behind his goal line with the ball in his hands for several seconds, yet no one saw anything. It's not possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  15. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    The link about explains why the VAR didn't step in.

    Not saying that is right and really they ought to be allowed to but a "reason" is given.

    Weather you believe it or not is a different matter.
     
  16. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    The PGMOL will make up the rules to fit the occasion. They say that VAR could not intervene because a goal was not given. However didn't they also say VAR was to be used for clear and obvious errors leading to the awarding or disallowing of goals? They have two rules for every occasion and will state the one that fits in order to justify their decisions.
     
  17. Hornpete

    Hornpete Squad Player

    5 or 6 seconds? Are you sure you saw it live and not the sky "slo-mo"?

    You're right about something fishy going on, there was a constant crowd noise all game and yet no fans. Explain that one.
     
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    PGMOL. "The decision to not award a goal in the Aston Villa verses Sheffield United match was perfectly correct. The goalkeeper has one foot in front of the goal line and is holding the ball. He never once lets go of the ball. When the keeper is holding a ball his body becomes an extension of the ball, so therefore if any part of his body (left foot in this case) is on or ahead of the line, then the ball is still in play."

     
  20. Harrybassetthater

    Harrybassetthater Academy Graduate

    I also thought there was a suspicion of a handball by the Villa defender?
     
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  21. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Yes....the ball did touch his hand, but it was for less than a minute so does not count.

    I think the goal was not given because the Villa defender clearly pushed his own keeper into the goal. This was a foul, so it was correct not to award the goal.
     
  22. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Time to replace the corona tin foil hats with the VAR tin foil hats again lads.
     
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  23. Carpster

    Carpster Reservist

    Agreed. In this day an age of technology it's simply catastrophic. Ok Hawkeye failed but what are the VAR buffoons there to do?
     
  24. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    And this is why VAR was never the answer to the officiating issue in our game. The PL is littered with really poor refs. Putting a poor ref in front of a TV screen doesn't make him any better. All VAR has achieved is to highlight further just how woeful the officiating is and how arrogant the PL are.
     
  25. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Going by the rules in this rare situation nothing it seems.

    Another case of rules being created without some common sense and leeway.
     
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  26. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Hawkeye is older technology that was wrongly believed to be 100% accurate, no buzz on the watch, no goal.

    Var is more modern technology introduced at a later stage. The belief that the older technology was 100% accurate meant that no allowances were made for it not working when the new technology was introduced.

    Var could in theory replace Hawkeye, it wouldn’t be as instant but it would be 100% accurate because it’s not a simple yes or no, it can be reviewed indefinitely until the correct decision is made.

    The failing here is twofold, the assumption that Hawkeye was 100% accurate and therefore failure didn’t need to be worked into the VAR rules.

    The second failing is that when a clear error is made that leads to a goal either being given or disallowed, VAR is constrained by existing rules to not be able to do anything about it. There should be a common sense override so that when it comes to something so binary and not a matter of opinion the correct decision is always made.
     
  27. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I agree with most of this though, taking Pusetto's goal line clearance against Spurs earlier in the season as an example, do you think VAR would definitely have agreed it was not a goal?
     
  28. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    There was a feeling that Hawk-Eye was 100% accurate, because before yesterday it was. Now, the people who make the rules should have foreseen that one day it may fail. Technology will always fail as some point. It always does. It could have been something simple like his watch went wrong, or there was a momentary interruption with the signal...there are a multitude of events that could lead to no beep on a referee's watch.

    Now we have VAR, all it takes is a momentary glace at the screen. If it's really tight, then the benefit is given to the technology because we do not want to slow up the game, to double-check Hawk-Eye every time, but when it's as embarrassingly obvious to everyone that was watching the game the ball had crossed the line, then VAR has to intervene. That's what it's there for, to correct clear and obvious mistakes.

    You cannot have in place a system that allows injustices to occur and the VAR official is feeling gagged just because of some quirk in the rules. There has to be an allowance for the VAR official to voice his concern, overriding rules. There has to be this tolerance built in.

    The entire season has been littered with VAR f*ck ups. Ok, we knew there would be some teething problems, but they just have not learned a damn thing. The same stupid mistakes are continuing to happen.

    VAR is a brilliant system. So is Hawk-Eye. But they are aids to support the officials. The biggest area that needs looking into is the competence of not only the matchday officials, but the PGMOL guys that make the rules. They just don't seem to be able to anticipate even the most basic of eventualities. It's just so depressing to watch one of our relegation rivals get given a valuable point. Who knows how important that point or even goal will be at the end of the season. Whatever happens, Villa will be 1 point and 1 goal better off than they should be.
     
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  29. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Maybe not, it depends if it’s like the offsides and they got their red lines out and could work it out that way.
     
  30. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    You should only have VAR intervene when it's "clear and obvious". This was the mantra for VAR from day one. When it's very tight, you have to go with the Hawk-Eye technology, but when there's clear daylight between to goal line and ball, so it's very clear and obvious, then VAR has to overrule.

    There have been over 9000 matches and this is the first time H-E failed. So its track record is pretty reliable. Just like in tennis, you have to trust the system unless it fails by quite a margin. I've seen empires overrule Hawk-Eye because it was so far wide or you get an erroneous beep when there's no play even taking place.

    Basically, trust it when it's too close to call, or override it when it's clearly wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  31. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I know it’s not the laid down protocol, but this is why Oliver should have asked for, even insisted on, a review. The ref is supposed to be the prime arbiter, so that the the game is not refereed by VAR, and he knew something was wrong.
     
  32. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    This is what I don't understand. Why was the referee so reluctant to call the VAR guy (Tierney) to clarify and why was Tierney so reluctant to tell Oliver the ball was clearly over the line.

    You know when you're at a match when something out of the ordinary has occurred. You have to trust your instincts and reach out for help when required. These guys are so scared of asking for assistance, and it's this fear that is creating the barriers.
     
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  33. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    This is why you need common sense. The ref can’t give it, even if he thinks he has seen it go in there is no way he can override technology that he wrongly but understandably believes to he 100% accurate.

    There is no guarantee that goal would’ve been given pre hawkeye. Why was goal line technology brought in? Because of regular calamitous errors so obvious it became farcical to not introduce technology. The catalyst was the Lampard goal against Germany, so obvious it became too embarrassing for Fifa not to act. That goal was clearly over the line by a mile, factually all of the officials in that game saw the ball cross the line quite comfortably, but their own minds interpretation of what they saw differed to reality, they did not see the ball do what it quite clearly did.

    So the ref cannot overrule it, Var is constrained by the fact there was no goal or offence to dispute, so technically they cannot overrule it.

    But they can see it’s a goal, so they need to ability to use common sense, to communicate with the ref and explain that situation. The fact that the system doesn’t allow for this is utterly ridiculous.

    VAR, the ref and Hawkeye have all collectively been shafted and made to look stupid by a poor set of rules.
     
  34. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    In fairness, the crowd didn't appeal for it.
     
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  35. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    In Oliver's defence, he should be able to rely on his watch with VAR as an additional safety net. If neither have notified him then why query it? If you query it on player reaction you'd do it every game.

    Hawkeye has always been promoted as 99.99% accurate. So the VAR should only be needed in 00.01% of these instances and he failed.
     
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