VAR decisions

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    I know it’s not the point, but one of my Saints supporting mates reminded me of Doucoures blatant hand ball against them a few seasons ago to bundle the ball home, so he sees it as karma.

    The fact that we are seeing more incorrect decisions and more controversy with VAR than without is an absolute scandal and shows it’s not fit for purpose as its currently being used.
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  2. Latest score Watford 1 - 6 VAR :rolleyes:
     
    Supertommymooney likes this.
  3. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    No arguments from me. I agree that the club should complain officially. Hundreds of millions of £s ride on these decisions. There's really no excuse. The timeframe argument is ridiculous given the amount of time devoted to other decisions. I doubt there's any deliberate 'conspiracy' though. More convincing is the suggestion that VAR is only being used half-heartedly when we're potentially on the receiving end.
     
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    If you look at all those decisions, it's had a massive impact on our season.

    Handball by Murray at home to Brighton. Losing 0-1 at the time and a penalty should have been awarded. We were on the ascendancy at that point. Could have been a game changing decision (even season defining!!).
    Penalty against Everton should have been awarded after a clear foul on Deulofeu. Probably cost us a point. -1 point
    Handball goal scored by Newcastle. We were leading 1-0 at the time. Cost us a win. -2 points
    Handball goal scored by Spurs when we were leading 1-0. No penalty given for a clear foul on Deulofeu, again when we were leading 1-0. A win definitely denied. -2 points.
    Handball goal scored by Southampton, again when we were leading 1-0. Because it was so late in the game, it changed the momentum of the match completely. -3 points.

    The one we got given to us was a consolation against Chelsea and we didn't gain anything from it.

    So you could quite easily argue VAR mistakes has cost us 8 points at least this season......YES, the same total as we've actually got. That's just insane. Had VAR done it's job correctly we'd be on 16 points right now. This is why the club has to make some sort of official complaint.

    THREE handball goals scored against us.....ALL have cost us points. NO OTHER CLUB has had a single handball goal scored against them with the VAR system. The evidence is clear to me, and my suspicions of how we are dealt with by officials, which I have taken dogs abuse for over the years, is finally proven.
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  5. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    We're all well aware of the list hb1. Well I certainly am. But why the need for exaggeration? Everton was contentious. I'd suggest we were robbed of two points v Newcastle, two v Spurs and one on Saturday. So five. Not eight AT LEAST. Still very significant though.

    What has convinced me that you may be onto something is the nature of the three handball decisions (excluding the non pen. v Brighton). All similar in that they involved goals for the opposition which should have been disallowed and all away from home. And, as far as I'm aware, you're entirely correct that no other team has suffered similarly at all throughout the entire season. So, whilst nothing is 'proven' we're definitely in 'no smoke without fire' territory. And the suggested crime would be, in two instances, VAR not paying due care and attention coz Watford. The Dele Alli incident was of course examined thoroughly but the wrong conclusion reached.

    You will be aware that I'd commenced an objective look at all this. I have now decided to abandon this project on the grounds that:

    1. It was just too time consuming and,

    2. Absolutely nobody else seemed to be in the slightest bit interested in objectivity.

    In the face of VAR apparently being a 100% certain conspiracy to award Liverpool the title on the strength of a sample size of one v Man. City (when they'd actually been hard done by by VAR against Villa the previous weekend) then there's really not a whole lot of point in going to a whole lot of time and trouble to be objective.

    People would seem to prefer to be instantly subjective and I guess I'll just have to accept that.
     
  6. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It does need pointing out, as I find a lot of people forget things. In the heat of the moment sure, they know all about it, but 2 or 3 games down the line it gets forgotten, unless it's catalogued.

    The VAR against Southampton changed the game completely. We were winning late in the game, but the illegal goal they scored swung momentum their way. Had that 'goal' been disallowed, it could have had a detrimental effect and deflated them completely, so I think it's fair to say it cost us 3 points not, just 1.

    I accept the Everton one is not quite so certain for some people, but I thought it was clear. Far clearer than the one we got against Chelsea for example. I don't think 8 points lost is an exaggeration, in fact I could have insisted we'd have got something against Brighton, but because the final score was so emphatic it may not have made a difference. But, as we saw against Southampton, a goal completely changed the direction of the game.

    I used to get dismissed out of hand over refereeing, but now it's very clear what they do, and their bias and prejudice is evident. There's no other explanation for it, apart from the wimpy excuse "we've been unlucky".

    1-6 VAR decisions for and against is a massive imbalance, and apart from the Everton claim, all have been agreed by the vast majority. This is something I predicted would happen, so it's no surprise to me. I think it might be a shock to some though, as my crazy notion may have some merit to it after all.
     
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    This is absolutely right; you can't pile all these instances on one side of the scales. VAR is never going to sort out the subjective decisions like the push on Deulofeu at Everton but it should absolutely pick up the handballs like those at Newcastle and Southampton. To miss those is inexcusable.
    I would also argue that the one on Saturday might well have cost us 3 points rather than 1; would Southampton have scored the second without the momentum shift after scoring the first?
     
  8. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Once you go down the route of 'momentum shifts' it immediately becomes very subjective. You can't really contend that Southampton wouldn't have got a subsequent free kick on the edge of our box if their first goal had been correctly disallowed. All you can do objectively is to chalk off their first goal.
     
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Seems like Will Hughes disagrees with your point, but sides with me.
    https://www.watfordfc.com/teams/first-team/its-varce-hughes-reaction
     
  10. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    He's just being honest. I think your version of objective means watering down the facts, to give them some kind of unfair balance.
     
  12. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Ofcouse we might have found a way to lose /draw those games anyway but never know !!
     
  13. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    But if the goal had been ruled out then everything changes. We would have had a free kick and not kicking off on half way, so the pattern of the play would have been completely different. I think that goal cost us a win considering how late it was in the game. The non penalty at Spurs was horrific. The handball at Newcastle should have been given but with 50 minutes still to play we can't say it robbed us of a win as had it remained at 1-0 they may have approached the second half differently. I would say that Spurs and Southampton are the only two I think have definitely cost us points, very possibly 5 points which would put us in touch with the rest of the pack.
    VAR has definitely not been our friend
     
  14. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    To counteract your view on Newcastle. It's true their equaliser came quite early in the second half, but they did not go on to win the game. This leads me to think they wouldn't have scored had that goal been disallowed, because they were not able to force a winner. If they could have scored again, to win the match, they would have. This is why I consider this cost us 2 points for sure.
     
  15. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    You might be right but it's quite difficult to predict something like that. If the free kick had been given, we could played a short pass, Catchcart missed controlled it and they nip in and score. The whole of the way something would have played out is different if you change what actually happened
     
  16. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I understand your point, but with something like this you have to look at how the game played out but overlay the likelihood of what probably would have happened had the goal been disallowed. You could say Newcastle may have been so enraged by the disallowed goal that it inspired them to score 16 goals. No one can tell you that wouldn't have happened, but it is unlikely.

    IMO, the most likely event, had the goals been ruled out, as they should have been, is that we would have won at Newcastle, Spurs and Southampton. That in itself, without anything else, has cost us 7 points. In a season where we've only picked up 8 points, that's massive.
     
  17. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I certainly agree with Southampton and Spurs and that's 5 points which would put us in touching distance. Whatever your view we certainly are not being done any favours!
     
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    We're now moving on from VAR to Sliding Doors.
     
  19. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Sometimes hb1 I have no idea whether you're just being obtuse, are not as bright as your writing might suggest or are simply a WUM.

    So to repeat. Neither you nor I nor KnightGT nor Will Hughes are good choices around objectivity concerning WFC. Much better would be independent TV pundits without a 'vested interest'.

    Neither is speculation around the state of the game, and what might have or not have happened afterwards, of any real worth. Maybe you and KnightGT are right but who's to say? Saying the Saint's first goal on Saturday should have been disallowed is a demonstrable fact. So that's 1-1 then. One point lost. B.t.w., I've just seen it for the first time. That is an appalling VAR 'dereliction of duty'.

    Pundits agree that we're 1-5 down on VAR decisions this season and that equates to five points lost by objective measurement. Why not be happy/unhappy with that? Winding it up does you no credit and simply illustrates that you don't understand stats. and objectivity at all and least of all what an objective consideration of VAR might look like.

    Unfortunately for you I do have a bit of experience in that field. Designing objective experimentation.
     
  20. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I’ve looked up the word obtuse. The definition is ‘to not agree with CleyHorn’. How about that? You’re listed in the Oxford Dictionary.
     
  21. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Ha! This isn't about opinion you very silly little boy.
     
  22. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    How rude. No Christmas card for you this year.
     
  23. Funny that this thread fell to the second page. Become such a joke for us that we don't even bother talking about it on the dedicated thread.

    For what it's worth, that was a stonewall penalty on Deeney.

    Varce!
     
  24. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Ref gave a free kick later on for pretty much the same thing as well so bottled that.
     
  25. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    The way var is currently being implemented is not fit for purpose.

    I read a book recently called black box thinking. The basic premise is that it compares the aviation industry and the medical industry. In the aviation industry every accident is analysed and learned from, mistakes are highlighted and anybody responsible is taken to task. In the medical industry mistakes are often described ‘one of those things’. Often things that could have been avoided or used as learning to avoid happening again are ignored, because there is a natural reluctance within the medical industry to question itself and the idea that highly skilled precessional might have made mistakes.

    We have the same thing happening here, professional referees making decisions that they can choose to not have reviewed, or if they are reviewed they’re reviewed by people doing the same job who are looking for any reason to support their colleague.

    It’s totally wrong, it should be about getting to the correct decision, not about trying to protect the person making the decision. Everything is set up to protect the referee from having to reverse a mistake, a complete waste of time.
     
  26. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    A few decisions were reversed for a while including probably the only time we have had the benefit of VAR v Chelsea but seems to have gone quiet again on that front.
     
  27. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    A good post marred by the contention that onfield refs choose as to whether they have their decisions reviewed or not. No they don't. That decision is made in the VAR studio. How many more times?

    Since week 9 'knee-jerk' support for the onfield refs' original decision has been less prevalent. A bit late for us who were 4-0 down at the time though.
     
  28. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Not just quiet on that front. Mike Riley came out and denounced the events of that weekend. He went as far as to say our penalty was an error.
     
    wfc4ever likes this.
  29. FromDiv4

    FromDiv4 Reservist

    Look at the picture in the BBC report on the game. That has to be a foul and therefore a penalty.
     
  30. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    VAR wasn't on for today presumably
     
    Davidmsawyer likes this.
  31. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    It doesn't really matter whether VAR has cost us 4 points or 8 points. Without these terrible decisions our season would be far more salvageable. It would have made for better moral and, probably, a better run of form.
     
  32. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    +4 points and we would be just 2 points off being safe. Something we could overturn in one game (albeit not the next one!)
     
    folkestone orn likes this.
  33. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    I naively thought VAR would even things up, but for us it has actually made things worse.
     
  34. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well not sure as the Spurs non penalty and Newcastle/Southampton goals would have still happened but more annoying to know it should have been changed .
     
  35. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    So now it's 8-2 against us, with VAR reviews which should have overturned the referee's decision. It has directly cost us 9 points this season. Had VAR been used correctly, with nothing else changing, we'd be on 18 points.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.

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