VAR decisions

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    He had his arm out keeping Lascelles ‘at arm’s length’ (sic) but there was no clear evidence he was actually pulling the shirt.
     
  2. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    So now VAR is overturning everything for a penalty.

    Terrible decision in the United game to gift them one, and then Zaha having a yellow for diving overturned and a pen given.

    I’m so glad the outcry over our hideous non-decision has helped all these other teams get VAR pens now.
     
  3. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    Yes, pretty much confirms my suspicions in post #452. A rash of penalty decisions overturned this weekend. Ever feel hard done by?
     
  4. foxywfc

    foxywfc Reservist

    Typical now that var has started over ruling the ref watch all the decisions go against us.


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  5. HappyHornet24

    HappyHornet24 Crapster Staff Member

  6. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  7. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    The thing that annoys me is the weakness and arrogance of the FA. If things are changing, they should state it clearly as to why. I mean I thought England were hard done by against NZ in the rugby on their version of VAR, but at least it was very transparent and if you disagreed with a decision, you could easily say why.

    The FA need to man up and explain their decisions. Live in game. Why not? It works in rugby. Answer = they are are scared, and they don't really care about football - but about their own image.
     
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I think they're more outdated than scared. There have been a couple of recentish examples of VAR/ref mic conversations being publicised. There was one with Michael Oliver deciding a last man red card involving Phil Jones another whole game one with Aussie ref who is now over here. Both were actually pretty impressive in demonstrating the many things they have to decide in a very short space of time.
     
  9. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    Fair point, although they I expect they publicise the ones that make them look good. Not just every decision live as it happens, this what we need.
     
  10. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    That is the only way you will get transparency of decisions. and at least the wrong ones should have some logic as they know they will be held to public account.
     
  11. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    If VAR is now going to over-rule the onfield ref. for pens that is a definite improvement this weekend. You might disagree with individual decisions but VAR did, this weekend, operate as it should.
     
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  12. RS2

    RS2 Academy Graduate

    Ideally the VAR should be telling the ref to look at his pitchside monitor, then it's up to the ref to go with or overturn his original decision. Now we have two people refereeing games. You could argue that this should mean more correct decisions but this weekend has showed that it's all still subjective. Until we know what the VAR is telling the ref surely it's best that they just use the pitchside monitors?

    It's all a mess at the moment. The bar for penalties has clearly been lowered in the week after the uproar following our non-penalty at Spurs, yet the Premier League hasn't released any statements about it. So as usual, us fans are kept in the dark just like we are on matchdays when the VAR could be telling the ref anything!
     
  13. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Even Solskjaer thought one of Man Utd's pens shouldn't have been given by VAR, and I wasn't sure about the other. What's the world coming to when Attwell gets thongs right but they get overturned?

    We know what'll happen against Chelsea. We'll actually get a goal and have it rubbed out, and then VAR will gift Chelsea a pen.
     
  14. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Here is my take on the seven (as far as I can remember) VAR 'incidents' this weekend. If I've forgotten any please correct me.

    Five concerned penalties/non penalties and two goals/no goals. Of the penalties, four concerned ones that weren't initially awarded and one that was. Of the goals/no goals both were initially awarded.

    The specific incidents:

    1. Seagulls v Toffees. Seagulls awarded a controversial pen. by VAR when a Toffee defender was 'convicted' of standing on a Seagull heel. Personally I think that should be a pen. if the evidence was clear (which perhaps it wasn't) but the collective punditry wouldn't have given it. So VAR wrong then.

    2. Citee v Villa. Did D. Silva get a touch on the De Bryne cross-shot or not? Terribly hard to see on the video footage but the D.Silva 'foot touching episode' didn't appear to be taken account of. Subsequently a concensus emerged that the goal should have been disallowed for offside. So VAR wrong then. But understandable.

    3. Arsenil v Palarse.

    Two incidents.

    Zaha booked for diving and no pen. awarded. Decision overturned by VAR, pen. given and yellow card rescinded. VAR entirely correct. If it is used in this way we might get towards an answer as to whether Zaha is so tricky and moving so fast that the on-field hasn't got a chance in deciding what's really gone on or if he's a congenital diver or both. Same goes for one C. Wilson at the Muff in his speedos and chlorine-washed body. Subjective prejudice. Guard against it.

    Arsenil 'winner' given on-field then disallowed by VAR. A concensus that that was a ridiculous decision regarding a melee in the box. Goal should have stood. VAR wrong.

    4. Pool v Spuds. Pen. awarded on-field for foul on Mane. VAR backs it up. Concensus agrees although I though Mane was a bit robust prior to being fouled. VAR correct though.

    5. Naarch v Manure

    Two incidents. Two pens not awarded to the Manure on-field but subsequently given by VAR. Both marginal. Concensus that the first one (foul on James) was (I disagreed) and that the second (handball) wasn't (agreed). I wouldn't have given either. But, on objective concensus, 1-1 for VAR then.

    So we have VAR correct 3 and incorrect 4 then. And the league table is:

    Seagulls +1
    Citee +1
    Palarse +1
    Manure +1

    Toffees -1
    Villa -1
    Arsenil -1
    Naarch -1

    Everybody else on 0.

    To be continued. If I've got time I'll go retrospective when we'd obviously feature too. Incidentally, it was quite easy this weekend to identify a 'concensus' without having to rely overly on MotD pundits alone.

    We do this weekend appear to have moved wholesale from a 'clear and obvious' instruction to a 'subjective and debatable' one around pens. Four given by VAR. I hope that new thinking doesn't go too far.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  15. Chiswell

    Chiswell Academy Graduate

    Solskjaer seemed to think that both penalties against Norwich should have been re-taken because Tim Krull, the Norwich keeper, stepped off his line before the penalty was kicked. Any views? Nothing made of it on MOTD but it looked like Solskjaer could be right. If so, surely this should have been picked up by VAR?
     
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  16. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Agreed. But specifically not a thing that VAR looks at. Why not? Easier than an offside decision. For the first pen. he was a yard off his line as Rashford approached.

    Ridiculous. What is the point of having the 'laws of the game' when there is an easy tool to enforce them which is delibarately overlooked?

    One criticism around VAR has been that it's more intent on denying goals than facilitating them. This weekend we had four pens awarded (two scored) and one goal denied incorrectly. So +1 goals then. Keep the keeper on his line = more goals. I'm all for it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  17. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Zaha might have have been booked at first because of his reputation?

    As for that Arsenal winner - where was the clear and obvious error?!

    Same with the first Man U penalty..

    The on pitch refs won't trust the VAR guy with decisions like that !!
     
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Lore of avridges says your rite

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  19. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    I believe that the keeper leaving his line for penalties is recommended as a focus for VAR by FIFA (or another relevant governing body, can’t remember which), but much like the handball rule, it’s being used a bit differently here and Prem refs aren’t using VAR to enforce it, because obviously, we’re much better at VAR here.
     
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  20. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

  21. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Converting the league table into points we have:

    Seagulls +2
    Palarse +1
    Toffees -1
    Gooners -2
     
  22. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    VAR is literally the worst thing to come into football second only to racism. The technology itself is pretty good but the people running it are ruining the experience. It's not just us who have been shafted, most teams have so far. Had most of the decisions been correct, we would be further up the table at least. I am not saying it papers over how god awful we have been with taking chances in games but it does play a factor into the equation. Bin it, or get people who make the decisions who actually know what they are doing. That incident at Spuds was shocking, probably one of the worst.

    Will it ever improve? It is a good system. the idea of it needs to be used purely for offside goals. Let the referee decide the fate of penalties.
     
  23. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well we might have 4 more points thus being 3rd bottom ..

    Does seem to have been inconsistent today again !
     
  24. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Complete rubbish. It was obviously used better last weekend. I anticipate it will be this one too (I'll maybe have to play catch-up on that). Obviously it's easier to make the correct pen. decision via video evidence rather than in real time. If we were to bin it, in the way you've suggested (you really don't have a lot of staying power), so early, then that would have let the refs' cabal win. Which is the last thing we want.

    Anyway, nothing stands in the way of the onwards march of technology.
     
  25. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    Irrelevant but the VAR was right today.
     
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  26. It clearly was, but Frank Lampard was still moaning about it in his after match interview, saying his player hardly touched Duelofeu o_O

    Even if that was the case, it was a CLEAR TRIP Frank and ergo that is a foul and as it was in the box IT'S A ******* PENALTY :rolleyes:
     
  27. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    I'm looking forward to Lampards falling apart 2nd season. The ****.
     
  28. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Not a penalty in a month of Sundays.
     
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  29. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    I disagree. HB1 would have counted it on his F***** in the A*** by VAR list had it not been given.

    There was actually a clear trip, causing Deleofeu to miss his stride and lose the ball. I think he threw himself over, but he was fouled.

    I've also just read Fat Franks comments, I think he should be fined by the FA. If the big 6 can whine and whine until they get what they want with VAR then it's not just an inept system, its a corrupt inept system.
     
  30. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    They did win as well - cheer up Frankie!

    GD did the old delayed reaction bit like most players do and well its not VAR fault as such - blame Mike Dean.

    BTW Where is HB1 - on holiday?
     
  31. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    Never a penalty. But more scandalous was the Dawson booking after his perfect tackle.
     
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  32. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    How **** must they be if we scored against them?
     
  33. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Reservist

    Just get the AI refs up to scratch. Base them on Collina and **** the rest of the useless bastards off. Problem solved.
     
  34. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    How little you know me. In my opinion it was never a penalty. Sure GD got kicked, but it wasn't enough to trip him up. Mike Dean was the VAR official, and knowing how MD operates, this type of decision is right up his street. As I've said many times, he's the only referee who likes to back the smaller club over a big side. He's brilliant for Watford and always has been. I love the bloke, because we always have a chance when he's involved.

    I think the non-penalty at Spurs was a watershed moment and this was probably in his memory when he told Taylor to overturn it. There was not enough to overturn the decision compared to other things that's gone on this season, but the decision we didn't get at Spurs was so bad and so publicised, that I think it went a long way in a different approach from officials. I think you'll see a lot more overrules from now on, as the VAR official will get more involved. It will probably go the other way for a while, before finally they will get the referee to review his own decisions on a little pitch side screen.

    It's a shame that the first beneficial VAR decision for us this season ultimately came to nothing though.
     
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  35. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Three matches this weekend involved VAR controversy (correct me if I 've missed anything):

    1. Villa v Liverpool. Firmino denied a goal for offside. Too close to call according to the pundits. I agreed. VAR incorrect.

    2. WFC v Chelsea. VAR awards WFC a pen. for a trip on Del Boy. Laughed out of court by the pundits. I agreed. VAR incorrect. Making up for the non-award in similar circumstances at Spurs? Maybe. Not the way to do things though.

    3. Everton v Spurs. Where to start? Three pen. claims, a red card, a potential red card and a horrific injury. To the pens first. Son claim not a pen. VAR correct. Two Everton pens (trip on Richarlison and Dele Alli handball) both pens according to MotD pundits. So VAR incorrect twice. Now Kilbane is an Evertonian so a 'conflict of interest' could be levelled but seeing as Keown agreed with him on all three and nothing looked dodgy to me then I suggest we could let that pass.

    On the red card front Atkinson changed his own mind re. Son without reference to VAR given (presumably) the horrific nature of Gomes' injury. A bit of a 'kneejerk' response. If he hadn't been sent off Son would have been subbed anyway as was Aurier. Anyway, no VAR involvement.

    As for the late trip by Sanchez on Richarlison. Well it wasn't reviewed by MotD2 probably because there was so much else going on particularly around the Gomes injury. Personally I thought that Richarlison was away and it was a deliberate trip after Sanchez had been robbed and he was the last man so he should have walked. But seeing as it wasn't reviewed by MotD2 I'll simply park that one.

    So for Matchday 11 we have VAR correct 1 and incorrect 4 and in the good luck/injustice dept. we have:

    Spurs +2
    Villa +1
    Watford +1
    Liverpool -1
    Chelsea -1
    Everton -2

    and converting that to points won/lost as a consequence of wrong decisions (making the assumption that penalties incorrectly not awarded would be scored) we have:

    Spurs +1
    Everton -2

    Adding this to the Matchday 10 data we have VAR correct 4 and incorrect 8 and for good luck/injustice:

    Spurs +2
    Brighton+1
    City +1
    Palace +1
    Man. U. +1
    Watford +1
    Villa 0 (both +1 and -1)
    Arsenal -1
    Norwich -1
    Liverpool-1
    Chelsea -1
    Everton -3

    The rest yet to register. And for points won/lost as a result of VAR we have:

    Brighton +2
    Palace +1
    Spurs +1
    Arsenal -2
    Everton -3

    From this we may conclude that the Toffees are currently feeling somewhat aggrieved having suffered two weeks in succession.

    Incidentally, this analysis will tend to make VAR look worse than it is given that it's ticking away all the time reviewing stuff in the background which won't necessarily be obvious at the match or on the telly.

    Finally, if anybody knows how I might access Weeks 1-9 MotD1 and 2 in full then I could do a retrospective analysis. They're not on the Beeb i-player anymore and You Tube is very patchy.

    Ta.
     

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