Tory Manifesto

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Meister, May 11, 2017.

  1. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    OK, that's a plausible reading too. Either way I can't see the point in persisting with the FTPA. As I said above, it's in the nature of the British Constitution for politics generally to trump law.
     
  2. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I'm highly surprised that you jump to yet another incorrect assumption, so soon after I corrected you for previously doing the same.

    I havn't given my views on allthe points of the manifesto, as each one of them is relatively unimportant (on their own) as I am looking at the bigger picture. But, since you ask, I am annoyed at the fox hunting bit - so your assumption is incorrect again.

    I havn't noticed you being annoyed by any of the Labour manifesto (not in that thread anyway), so are we to draw a similar assumption as you did with me?
     
  3. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I suggest that you invest a couple of quid and read a few Mails, and Mail On Sundays. You will find that there almost as many government critical articles in the papers as there are pro government, sometimes more. They regularly print full page articles by left wing journos and politicians. I honestly think that many of the Mail haters only do so by reputation rather than actual experience of reading it. Fair enough, many refuse to read them and rely on mere extracts they see in social media, but their criticisms are therefore hollow.

    But I do accept that the Telegraph is pro Conservative. with little effort to hold them to account.

    I often read the Mirror, Guardian and Independent and I rarely see any pro government articles, I think they are far more biased.
     
  4. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Last edited: May 19, 2017 at 5:46 PM
  5. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    He's probably thinking of Dan Hodges who is the Mail's pet Labour commentator and who naturally dislikes Corbyn.
     
  6. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    This shows how readers of national newspapers voted in the last GE. Lends credence to the argument that the Mail may be less right than the Express (given the number of UKIP voters reading the latter), and that there might be an occasional left of centre story plonked in there to placate the 14% of Labour voters in its readership, but it's still hard to see that the paper is going to be anything other than significantly Tory-leaning with this make-up of readers:

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted/
     
  7. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I'd say it is a pretty neutral article, I agree.

    But, as I said rarely do I see a real pro Tory article, for example written by an obvious right wing journo or politician. But maybe it happens, sometimes.
    I know this but a few Sunday's ago, I had to check that I hadn't picked up the wrong paper by mistake. The MoS was really giving the Tories are hard time.

    But, I wonder if the online version is more righty than leftie and that the leftie articles are mainly in the paper. I'l make a proper effort to check in future.
     
  8. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Well there are a lot of Labour supporters who dislike Corbyn.
     
  9. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    I suspect you are probably right about the balance between online and hard copy, ZZ.
     
  10. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The Mail on Sunday had a different editor. They clash and often take up opposite views on things just to antagonise one another. The MoS backed remain in the EU referendum for example.

    Me included. The point being I can't imagine they'd give him anywhere near as much room if he was championing him.
     
  11. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Today meanwhile they put out this propaganda to give their thanks for her dropping Leverson II and the new compulsory regulation:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Yes, I agree, but my point still stands. The Mail/MoS are not out and out right wing.
     
  13. Moose

    Moose First Team

    They will bite her arse before halfway through the next Parliament.
     
  14. Moose

    Moose First Team

    By comparison to who? Goering?
     
  15. Moose

    Moose First Team

    You are utterly deluded.
     
  16. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    I think he meant in the Grauniad, to be fair.
     
  17. Moose

    Moose First Team

    My bad if so. He was talking about more than one paper. ZZ does tend to deny that the press is right wing on the flimsy basis that right wing people sometimes attack each other, like with the Mail/Express and Cameron.
     
  18. Roger Irrelevant

    Roger Irrelevant Reservist

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
     
  19. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    ...and where do you fit in?
     
  20. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    It's all gone very 'project fear' by the Theresa May (Conservative) Party. After a robotic start and a dismal and negative middle I wonder what crescendo she has planned in the next couple of weeks?
     
  21. Otter

    Otter Gambling industry insider

    I clicked on here after a couple of drinks, having misread the topic. I thought it said "Tony Manifesto" thinking it was the name of our next Italian manager.
     
    The Voice of Reason likes this.
  22. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    .

    The manifesto is incredibly controversial. It is a combination of traditional, new, left and right. I'm not sure politically anyone could agree with it all.

    I suppose I was prodding you to see what you liked and what you didn't. It's just more interesting than 'overall it's good'.

    On the Labour manifesto, I think I said a line in the other thread saying something along the lines of 'they actually produced one economic policy I agree with'. Whilst that might not be attempting to pick parts of a manifesto apart, it's far from a glowing recommendation.
     
  23. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    It might be controversial, but I like the idea of pinching the best parts of left and right. I have already admitted that some of the more reasonable leftie posters on here have helped to sway me in their direction in some ways. Whenever I have taken one of these quiz thingies that supposedly tells us where we sit on the political spectrum, I come out as a centrist.

    I have sensed that society is starting to agree with me. It isn't (or it shouldn't be) about left v right, but should be about right v wrong

    I remember during the early days of the EU referendum debate on here Moose was maintaining that it would be fought along left/right issues. How wrong he was! Even Clive was stumped at which way he wanted to vote for a while.

    It makes me laugh how many on the left who hate the idea of a cartel of big corporations working together in order to skew the markets, keep prices high and generate bigger profits, yet ferociously support a cartel of wealthy nations trying to do the same thing in the EU. I dont like the idea of either scenario.

    I have maintained that many on the left are agreeing with many of the same things as me. They do not like the malingerers in the benefit system any more than I do. They understand that people that are struggling financially need to feed their children before buying cigs, booze and iphones. They understand that a job and/or house going to an eastern European obviously has an effect on a local that loses out. They understand that a western economy needs strong business that creates jobs, so discouraging business is detrimental to us all.

    I think that this Tory manifesto is acknowledging that the best way to run a such a diverse nation is not through political ideology and dogma, but through trying to find the best compromises from across the piste to suit particular circumstances, and that will mean not keeping pleasing everyone and will not necessarily keep traditional Party supporters happy all the time. I think it is called "growing up".

    Of course, those that want division, a class war, such as Clive and Moose on here and Corbyn, McCluskey and Lansman - all of who want to maintain a division in society, will hate such an inclusive way forward. But they are part of the outdated minority as the majority just want to get on with our lives, working hard to look after ourselves, our families and helping those that just cant do that.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017 at 8:28 AM
    Meister and iamofwfc like this.
  24. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    Is the death of left v right really that new a phenomenon? Neither Blair nor Cameron were that obviously in one camp or another. My frustration with Labour (for which I have always voted) at present is that it doesn't seem to see that. Will be interesting to see what emerges on the "left" after the election.

    I think there's a disjuncture between policy and personality though. May comes across to me - with her rather headmistressish style and the repetition of "strong and stable" - clearly as a Tory. Contrast that with Blair who did not fit the traditional Labour mould at all (a reason why many disliked him, of course).
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017 at 8:43 AM
  25. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    No it isn't something new, more of a growing phenomenon, I agree.

    But if we now look at the left and right balance in this country at the moment, we have a pretty far left Labour Party, a similar LibDems that will go anywhere it needs to in an effort to pick up a few votes, and the Conservatives. The right wing, has almost disappeared. No UKIP to speak of, no other far right Parties to speak of.

    Compare that with France, where socialism has taken a dive, and the far right is a growing force, even if ultimately snubbed on this occasion. Far right Parties are on the increase across the EU.

    I know what you mean about May, as in my earlier considerations of her, I felt the same way. But because she sounds like a headmistress, or even because she sticks to what is now the tired "strong and stable" mantra, that does not mean that she is a strong right-wing PM. She doesn't even come from a well-off background and was almost entirely state educated. She is not a "traditional" Tory. It is the policies that really matter, not how she sounds when she speaks.
     
  26. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Reservist

    I also think that the Tory manifesto vagueness is due to the House of Lords showing some gumption about not allowing controversial non-manifesto bills (Tax Credits and, rumour is, leaving the single market etc.) to "sail through" parliament. I'm assuming that the lack of clear/concrete, costings, deadlines and numbers (particularly to do with immigration) "muddies the waters".
     
  27. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Reservist

    A lot of acquaintances ITK maintain that the GE is only about May getting some sort of "traction" over the exceptionally vociferous Tory hard-right (much the same as what Cameron tried to do with Brexit). The attempted coup by Leadsome was exceptionally worrying for the Tory "high table".
     
  28. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I don't think there is any doubt that a potentially policy to help solve an obvious problem such as funding care costs, is going to be unpopular. There is just never going to be a universally popular "solution". In this case, by announcing it in the manifesto, the Tories have given it the best chance to get it through the House Of Lords, where probably every one of the Lords will be hit by the funding plan.

    Regards the vagueness of other policies, we are entering a period of huge uncertainty, any detailed costings, are particularly difficult at this time probably going to be tough and probably wrong. That is why the Labour Party can try and be a bit open about their costings - because they are unlikely to be able to actually be tested on them.

    ...which is just as well, as McDonnell was explaining today how they wont be borrowing to re-nationalise the rail, water and energy companies, as they will be issuing "government bonds" instead! What a joke that Party are!
     
  29. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    You dont have to be ITK to come to that conclusion. A small majority meant that hardliners in the Tory Party could derail mainstream policy. That needed to change.

    I thought that was pretty widely known. Even I said that this GE is all about getting a sizeable majority for the brexit negotiations.
     
  30. Keighley

    Keighley Reservist

    The Far Right has always been weak in the U.K., compared with Europe. Hopefully you are correct about UKIP, but I am inclined to reserve judgment until the votes are counted.

    I don't much care for May, but if she is able to subdue some of the nuttier elements of her party, that will be a good thing.

    On Labour: it's more complicated that that, surely. The PLP can't really be described as "far" Left given that 172 of them expressed no confidence in Corbyn last year. So, we have a disjuncture between leadership/members and MPs. In essence, at least two versions of Labour. IMO the really interesting aspect of the election, politically, is what emerges out of that post 8 June.

    Interesting hypothetical: what might have happened had some of those without confidence in Corbyn gone off to create their own party, a la SDP, last year? Perhaps we would not even be having an election now.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017 at 11:27 AM
  31. Moose

    Moose First Team

    It's an interesting idea this, but false. Both Labour and Tories would negotiate the same way. Corbyn and McDonnell, less inclined to the EU than even May would probably note Greece's experience and also walk away. Unless the EU is willing to make an offer there isn't much else to do.

    So May doesn't need a Brexit mandate, she needs one for her conservatism and that may be much less popular.
     
  32. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Well, I am just referring to the strengthening right in the EU and it's weakening over here.

    Of course, labour's situation is far more complicated than I have expressed in a few words, it would need a book of novel proportions. It's abandonment of the views of the vast majority of it's PLP (those that have been elected by the electorate) in favour of the few brought in under violence, threats and intimidation is shameful to say the least.

    It would be an interesting hypothetical, I agree. If I was an average Labour supporter or MP, I would want an alternative to what the current leadership is offering.
     
  33. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Ha ha, that must be a joke.

    After seeing a Labour manifesto that almost seems designed to ensure the UK coming out of brexit with a competitive disadvantage, led by a leader who has no support from almost his entire PLP? Corbyn would not have a scooby.
     
  34. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason The One and Only

    You will not forced to sell your home if you need care, but you will have to take out a loan with interest in the form of "a deferred payment scheme" with your local council if you want to defer payments until after your and or your spouses death.

    I am not totally against the proposed new way of funding your personal social care, but I am opposed to any deferred payment being subject to INTEREST, that is a step too far, it should be interest free IMO!

    Source of info: - Page two Thursday's Daily Mail Q&A by Daniel Martin
     
  35. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Of course there's interest to pay. It's a financial product designed to prop up the insurance companies. I've read this might even be their payback for Osborne decimating the annuity market with her pensions reforms.
     

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