Time for a new Captain?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Burnsy, May 23, 2019.

  1. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Indeed. But we still have Sedaka.
  2. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Neil Sedaka.

    Neil Price?

    Is this a form of Hertfordshire non rhyming slang, forged in the bowels of the Rookery, to which I am not privy?
  3. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Just thinking (no idea who it would be in our case), has any club, ourselves included, bought a player not only to strengthen the team but specifically to be team captain?

    I don't see why it couldn't be done, as an analogy companies are constantly replacing managers who either move on to other positions or to pastures new, and while there's clearly value to appointing someone who's been at the organization for a while and is familiar with their culture and ethos, if longevity always had to be a factor, then companies would only be appointing managers from within and people from the outside wouldn't get a look in.
  4. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Neil Sedaka would have put up more resistance to Trevor Steven in 1984.
  5. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    But his formidable back catalogue would have been a greater threat to Elton.

    Hence the lad Price gets the gig.
    hornetgags likes this.
  6. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Almoo, Gomie & Fozz would have been chosen for their dressing room presence as well as their keeping ability.

    Btw, they sound like 3 muppets.
  7. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I have no issue with him being described as this as he has played a huge part in our recent success and is our 4th top goalscorer of all time. It's knowing when the time is right to start to gently move people on and replace them in the team. I don't mean turning up in July for pre season training and telling Troy you're no longer required as he still has a part to play but we do have these younger strikers hopefully coming our way soon in Pedro, Cucho etc. I can't see Troy kicking up to much of a fuss as he is unlikely to leave off hos own back due to the fact he probably won't get the same money elsewhere
  8. Pob

    Pob Academy Graduate

    As others have said whilst he is at the club Deeney needs to stay the captain. It would be counterproductive and divisive to replace him whilst he was still at the club.

    Whilst I am aghast at some of Deeney’s media comments and acknowledge he does seem a moaner on the pitch I don’t see any tangible evidence that he has done anything but a good job as captain. He seems to be liked and respected by team mates. As far as I can see the team camaraderie has been excellent this season for which admittedly much of the credit needs to go to Gracia but it would be naive to think Deeney as captain was not a key contributor. Despite his counterproductive media comments he is also an ambassador for the club who has helped to raise our profile.

    I think there has been a massive over reaction to a few bad results at the end of season and a humiliating defeat to Man City (not specifically this thread but generally). As far as I’m concerned we’ve had a great season and shouldn’t be looking at fundamental changes and mass clear outs etc. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
    PowerJugs likes this.
  9. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    I meant that Deeney, being a club ledge, has to be captain.

    In a winning culture, no one can sit back & be sure of their place.
  10. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Harry has been a fantastic & high profile representative for WFC but I wouldn’t recommend Gareth for the armband.
  11. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse Strangeland

    Blame autocorrect! I meant time
    RookeryDad likes this.
  12. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    That's some correction.
  13. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Whatever happens, Love will keep us together.
    I bought that in 1976(?)
    I believe Joy division's anthem was written as a direct challenge to the premise of that song.
    RookeryDad and hornetgags like this.
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    How about this one ?
  15. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Is Deeney now filling the Mahon role?
  16. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    They certainly had a different vibe.

  17. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Which is which ?
  18. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    The Captain is wearing the cap.

    Not sure on the others.

    The Captain & Curtis?

    Bouncy verse, doomy chorus.
  19. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    In answer to the initial question, is it time for a new captain? No.

    At the moment I struggle to think of anyone in the squad who I would deem as good replacement captain material. None of the defenders, bar perhaps Holebas and Femenia, are good enough for the job and the latter two would also struggle in the role. Femenia comes across as a quiet sort and Holebas is too passionate for his own good. Give Jose the captaincy and he manages to break the record and pick up more yellow cards than ever before.

    In the midfield, there is an argument that Capoue has influence in the team, but he never looks like captain material to me. Hughes, Chalobah and Quina are all relatively unknown quantities, but are simply too young to be given the job. Wingers are never particularly effective captains, and can you really imagine Pereyra or Deulofeu shouting orders across the pitch and acting as a figurehead. Cleverley is probably the best outfield captain prospect we have, but it would be a bold move at the moment to make him captain in wake of his recent injury problems.

    You could argue that Gomes or Foster have leadership qualities and I agree with this, however I never think keepers make good captains as they are too far away from the action to have much of an influence.

    Troy therefore is our default choice. Unless we buy someone in who begins to take on the mantle, I can't see a ready made replacement in the team. As far as I am concerned at this point there is no value in selling Troy. His peak financial value has already passed and he is on a decent contract going forwards. I also feel he offers us as a lot on the pitch, and our best performances have been with him. Even if we buy someone in he would still have immense value to us as quality off the bench.

    So in conclusion, I personally would be absolutely gutted if we gave him the old heave-ho. He deserves more from us.
  20. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    But would you have thought Deeney was captain material when he was handed the armband? Because I fail to believe that many of us did.

    I agree there would be large degree of indignity in taking the armband off him for a player of similar age or older. I just think there’s an argument for giving the captaincy to someone younger with a new voice. As I’ve said above, if his fitness issues could be sure of being over, I would give it to Chalobah if it was given to someone from within and not a new signing.
    Optimistichornet likes this.
  21. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    I think if he's committed to the club, Doucoure would be the best choice to replace Deeney, he has a major impact, and more positive than that of Deeney in more ways than one, on how we play, and we aren't half the team without him. His positive personality (admittedly not so much in evidence on Saturday, but it was clear that none of the team went into the final with much confidence) would motivate the team to at least try to reach the heights of this season.

    Why don't you think Capoue looks like captain material? Next to Doucoure he looks the most obvious candidate.
    Optimistichornet likes this.
  22. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    I think Troy has always had a lot of character for us, probably debut season aside. I think the last 6 months before he went to jail he grew a lot as a player and became more of a leader on the pitch and in the dressing room. Remember in zolas first year he went straight from jail back into the team and never looked back.

    I would not be surprised if one of the young guns did step up to become a leader, but I havnt seen any kind of leadership from those players yet, and it would be a bad move to dump a very credible captain without having identified a replacement.
  23. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    That's the thing with Doucoure though, do you expect him to stick around? He might if no one is prepared to bid what we expect, but you want a captain that is committed to the club. I'm not sure Doucoure is that man. By the way I have nothing against him and think he has entirely earned his shot.

    I like Capoue and get the impression he is well liked, but is he respected enough to be captain? He has a very languid style of play, and im not sure if he has the energy that a captain needs. I know this is all visual as his distance travelled stats are very impressive on a matchday. I want a captain though who is clearly giving his all every moment he is on the pitch. That being said alongside Cleverley he would be my stand out candidate.
  24. Capoue or Cathcart?
  25. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Refs have done little to suggest that they've had their ear bent by Deeney, as I'm not sure how much harsher they could have been to us over the past couple of years.

    Troy's own ability to get sent off for marginal yellow card offences, suggest that far from fawning over him, refs can't wait to **** him off the pitch, or one of his colleagues, failing that.

    Perhaps someone who doesn't shoot from the lip so freely and with a bit more of a respectable temperament would be better at managing referees, as well as leading and inspiring the team.
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  26. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Highest number of interceptions, highest number of clearances, and second highest number of duels won in the Premier League last season is not good enough for you?! Crikey.

    As for Deeney, he only ever sprints when it's trying to make amends for giving the ball away cheaply. He looks like he couldn't give two hoots when there's a cross to potentially get on the end of.
    iamofwfc likes this.
  27. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Or after the chip van.
  28. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    Pat Rice
    GarethCritic likes this.
  29. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    Read the post mate. You even quoted it!

    'He has a very languid style of play, and im not sure if he has the energy that a captain needs. I know this is all visual as his distance travelled stats are very impressive on a matchday. I want a captain though who is clearly giving his all every moment he is on the pitch.'

    I think Capoue has a laid back style of play, that is absolutely fine and i certainly am not criticising his commitment. However I have always thought a captain should play with a high intensity. Capoue's style whilst very effective is not high intensity. I have no doubt about the interceptions, clearances and duels, but he does it all whilst looking supremely languid. Deeney has a very different style, he hustles and bustles and admittedly sometimes charges around like a headless chicken. He does less work than Capoue on a matchday, but his style makes it seem like he does a lot.
  30. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    Recon Troy reads this forum and is just itching to comment
  31. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I did, and it was this bit I had most issue with: "I want a captain though who is clearly giving his all every moment he is on the pitch."

    Capoue clearly does give his all when on the pitch, hence his stats, and regardless of his style of play his efforts haven't gone unnoticed, hence why he was voted Player of the Season.
    Forzainglese likes this.
  32. Optimistichornet

    Optimistichornet Penguin Assassin

    Argh how many times do i have to say it.

    I have no doubt that Capoue clearly gives his all. However the way he plays football always looks far too relaxed. I simply don't think that this makes him good captain material. I'm not having an argument with you about this. I'm allowed to have an opinion, and my opinion happens to be different to yours. Deal with it.

    Unless your actually Etienne Capoue messaging in which case i'm sorry and we wouldn't be having this debate if you had done the decent thing and ended Zaha properly back before Christmas. That would have made you captain material.
  33. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    What makes you think that I'm not dealing with it? I'm fine with there being disagreement. I agree that Capoue does have a relaxed style, but I'm just saying I still think there's a contradiction in your point, in that it doesn't seem feasible that he both "clearly gives his all" while also looking "too relaxed" at the same time. Relaxed or languid, sure, but not in a way that is overall detrimental. Clearly the visual aspect of his languid style has not been so dramatic as to overshadow the ability of people to perceive how much effort he has been demonstrating, or else he would not have been so lauded this season. I just don't think others observe his style as being such an issue.

    Though he avoided even getting a red card for it - Troy could learn a thing or two about the dark arts from Etienne.
    Optimistichornet and wfcmoog like this.
  34. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    There’s quite a bit that’s confusing though?

    So Deeney would be a better captain because he gives the impression of doing more? Amrabat ran about a lot by the same token?

    Some of the best captains there has been in football have a languid style. Indeed the more accurate reasons (just in my opinion) why Capoue isn’t a good candidate are as follows:

    Same age as Deeney. It’s should only really happen for a younger candidate with a different direction. Too much would remain the same under Capoue I fear and there wouldn’t be enough gained to make the decision worthwhile.
    And his recent pre-cup final interview with Affleck - Capoue doesn’t love the game. He openly admitted as much. He even gave the impression he’s doesn’t really enjoy it. That’s not the attitude of a captain.

    A candidate for me has to me ‘on it’ both on and off the pitch. Hence my reasons for questioning Deeney to begin with - I don’t think his leadership on the pitch is up to standard anymore. And I think it’s just one of the reasons why standards and form drops at the end of each season.
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Are people seriously accusing Deeney of being more all action than Capoue? The statue if GT is more mobile.

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