Time for a new Captain?

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Burnsy, May 23, 2019.

  1. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Is it time? What would the consequences be?

    Troy has 'some' undoubted leadership qualities. Whether we like it or not, he's the public face of the club. Now whether that's because the club have facilitated that to happen or he's pushed his own agenda is up to debate - but thats how it is. The press or TV shows come along for a piece and 9 times out of 10 its Troy who is put forward.

    Have we now backed ourselves into a situation where he has too much sway in the corridors? Do all the players like and respect him? Or does he have a small clique of powerful voices and the rest simply follow or ignore him?

    He's done an undoubted job on the pitch over the years and his influence shouldn't be talked down. But the silly soundbites and on-field temperament issues are taking their toll and beginning have more negative effects that may start to outweigh the positives. Some may think they already do.

    He's had a half-decent season in my opinion - and his absence has been evident when not playing. But does he do a captains job on the pitch? A captain for me sets professional standards and demands concentration and efforts levels are maintained. Season after season, these levels drop alarmingly down the home-stretch. Troy's head was amongst the first to drop on Saturday. And I question his self-belief at times...a streak of arrogance can be good for a striker. But too often he claims pre-game that top defenders will hate playing against him...only for them to school him for 90 mins.

    This is a catch-22 situation IMO. I honestly don't think he should be the captain on the pitch anymore...but I'd like him to stay at the club. I think some of his issues with anger on the pitch and comments off it are a direct result of him being captain. However, take the captaincy off him and he will almost certainly want to leave the club I believe. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I think we could maybe offset this by having a return to the system of 'Club' and 'Team' captains.

    I think Troy makes a good club captain to an extent. But I think his days as team captain should be curtailed now. It's time for new voice to be heard on the pitch and the increasing voice of Deeney to be made smaller.
     
  2. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I'd be happy for him to leave (not a surprise to many of you, I know). For all the talk of the club of wanting to push on to the next level, does anyone really believe that we can do that with Troy still here as our main striker?

    Also, a captain should set a good example both on and off the pitch, and it's been questionable if Troy has ever properly done that. Being put in jail for assault, getting a number of stupid suspensions which cost the team, running his mouth off in public, going out too much, and often being overweight, are not qualities one would associate with a model professional. Additionally, I'm not convinced of his motivational qualities on the pitch either - as you correctly identify Burnsy, he's often one of the first players whose heads drop when things aren't going our way, and his reaction to a difficult match is often to point the finger and criticise those around him, while he rushes around like a bull in a china shop committing late fouls.

    I've admitted that Troy positively surprised me with his general form and fitness at the start of this season, given he was truly atrocious in the previous one, however there have been signs in the last couple of months that his fitness levels have dropped down again and he's back to chasing shadows on the pitch.

    Of course there's a risk in getting rid of someone of his influence, but I'm sure we've got enough characters at the club to make up for any leadership we may lose with him being gone. It could also backfire, but him leaving also opens up the possibility of a new, perhaps even better chapter for the club.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  3. Hornet4ever

    Hornet4ever WFC Forums Last Man Standing Winner 2018/2019

    Some good points & a big conundrum.

    I think the club are aware captaincy will need to be handed on soon for a variety of reasons, I think for Troy's dignity they would be best to do that in tandem with a decent offer coming in for him in the summer. His financial value will not increase from here.

    Or wonder if he might be better going on loan to Udinese to shake them up a bit. Ready made captain in a box.
     
  4. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Did he eat the fox?
     
  5. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I would also ask...who do people think we have at the club already who could step up?

    A left-field one. And it would obviously mean Doucoure moving on or a change in formation. But IF we could be sure of him staying fit or even being fit, I’d give it to Chalobah in the current squad. He has always struck me as a player in the captaincy mould even in the days when he was 17. He’s clearly well-liked by his teammates and those in charge of the club. It needs to be given to someone with time on their side as well. I would also argue it’s needs to go to someone who it would add even more to their game and drag an extra 20% from them. He fits that mould for me entirely.
     
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  6. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I've always felt the captain should be a centre back just because he sees everything going on in front of him but is still close enough to the action to have his voice heard. Keepers as captains is very odd. Troy has done a lot of good stuff over the years and maybe club captain is the better role for him. This is where signing somebody like Cahill would be the best option as he could come in as captain and maybe help players like Kabasele or Wilmot if they played next to him.
    If Deeney stays fit then he has another couple of years left in him at this level but maybe the playing time would start to reduce especially if Cucho, Pedro, Lukebakio and Stupareivic (is that right?) live up to their hype
     
  7. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    It’s a tough situation to deal with. It’s hard to deny the impact he’s had on our club, and he surely plays a big role in the dressing room. For better and worse, he’s the guy that most people think of when Watford come up in conversation.

    That said, while his performances this season have been much improved on the last couple of years, he’s still not a guy we can rely on to singlehandedly win us games on a regular basis, nor is he good enough to lead the line alone.

    I’d fear that his pride is too great for us to facilitate a graceful slide toward the end of his contract with diminishing playing time, and it’s hard to see him accepting a squad role, rather than being the main man.

    It really leaves us with a couple of options, neither of which seem particularly attractive. We sell Troy, likely against his wishes and there’s an acrimonious parting of ways, or we continue to somewhat pander to him, and continue to build our attack around him until his contract is up.
     
  8. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Good points but I’m not sure of the merits of a 33yr old coming as captain. Someone like Cahill doesn’t need the captaincy for validation on the pitch. His voice is respected regardless.

    I just don’t see Deeney staying if he isn’t captain. He needs the armband to justify his spot IMO. I just think conditions have got to a situation where it’s questionable to justify it anymore. The cons maybe outweighs the pros now...

    Also - we are a business with small turnover. It’s a poor financial decision to have Deeney earning what he does playing smaller amounts of football.

    All things considered, Deeney’s captaincy will end when he moves on. Not before. We’ve backed ourselves into a corner I think.
     
  9. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Not sure a parting of ways would be acrimonious, just hard. He’s said a few times that he’s been prepared to move on under different managers but found a new energy once they were replaced. And he felt wanted again. I think he accepts that transfers are a part of the game and he’s been prepared to accept them in the past....

    I think the problem will be his contract. Any move to any club at this point will only be a sideways or downwards move. Many won’t pay a decent fee for someone who is the wrong side of 30 and commands £70k a week.

    As I say in the above post, I think we’e backer ourselves into a corner with his contract and keeping the captaincy on him too long.
     
  10. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    problem is we've got no one else who could do it. All our guaranteed starters are either spineless or don't want to be playing for WFC. Or mainly both.
     
  11. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    This season he had a few patches where he demonstrated value, but they were isolated between the more typical periods of mediocrity and anonymity.

    I can recall one or two examples, maybe, where he's shown captain-like qualities to lead the team through a difficult game to a result.

    All to often, however, he is the problem, not the solution. Whether it's being sent of and suspended for needless challenges, or it's bringing attention for the wrong reasons because of his big gob shooting off on social media, the balance of benefit is tipping very much against Troy in my view. His limitations as a player and the lack of any evidence of leadership on the pitch, have overtaken his contributions, which are becoming rarer.

    He's undoubtedly a club legend who has been with us through a great period in our history, but if there was a move for him to go somewhere else this summer, I would not be unhappy. He'd always be a hero for his time here, but I fear that the longer he stays and the more he continues his relentless pattern of having a half decent game, shooting his mouth off, getting into trouble, getting sent off, having an extended period of doing nothing etc. the more I wonder whether he's damaging his WFC legacy.
     
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  12. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I think the merits of a 33 year old former England International speaks for itself and actually might sway the balance in our favour if we were interested. As for Deeney, I would hope that he is a better man than to down tools if relieved of the captaincy as he will still be an important player but his games missed due to suspension this year and the fact he freely admits he wasn't fit enough the previous year are not the actions of a captain
     
  13. The captain should be whoever has the worst English combined with the squeakiest voice
     
  14. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Of course I’m not saying Cahill wouldn’t be a good captain. He’s captained Chelsea to league and cup victories. I’d be crazy to suggest otherwise. But it would be a short term appointment - good for a season, maybe two, and then we are back at square one. Surely better to find a more suitable longer term option knowing a player like Cahill wouldn’t need the armband to be a voice of power in the squad?

    (Obviously aware its a very theoretical post as Cahill is very unlikely to join Watford. Just making the point for any similarly aged player really!)
     
  15. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Yep, agree with lots of this. I’m not sure he’d be willing to go quietly and I’d be happy to bet we’d get a few “after all I’ve done for the club” comments if we did try to bin him off. Maybe not acrimonious, but I’m not sure it would be on the best of terms.

    You’re right though, we’ve backed ourselves into a corner.

    It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.
     
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  16. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    And how many can communicate fully with the rest of the team!?

    I could only think of Capoue as a replacement if those who start regularly and for now generally perform well (not Saturday granted)

    Not sure Cathcart would be a good captain for example and Mariappa wouldn't be in the team if we brought new central defenders.

    I guess the club would have to decide how Troy might react to not being captain and what kind of impact/influence that might have on the dressing room.

    With Troy's PR ability he'd probably make his views well known!
     
  17. jrmich9

    jrmich9 Reservist

    We've struggled without Troy, and definitely don't have a ready made captain in the wings based on evidence when Troy's been out. He's good at playing the ref manipulation game - and likely is our only player who seems to have that somewhat 'known player' relationship that refs fawn over.

    Playing staff wise...again, we look much weaker without Deeney, so until at least two replacements come in (as we already need back up as it is up front) then it makes no sense to lose him in my opinion?
     
  18. Steve Terry's headband

    Steve Terry's headband Academy Graduate

    I said before the start of last season that I would like us to bring in a centre back who could be captain. I don’t think Troy is a complete leader. Too much shoulder shrugging and moaning at our own players when things went going well.

    When he was interviewed on the pitch after the Wolves semi final, he said he wanted a new contract. I think he would stay with a new contract even if that meant giving up the captaincy. I think we need to freshen up the leadership of the team in order to move on.
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  19. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    I don't know what he thinks he will achieve winding up players that are better than him at every aspect of the game
     
  20. brinnyboy1985

    brinnyboy1985 First Year Pro

    Sorry but Troy is 100% the leader of the club and has binded us together for years. As long as he’s at the club he’s club captain.

    He’s a legend and if we’re foolish enough to take for granted what’s he’s done then we will be on downwards spiral very quickly.
     
  21. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    You are of course correct but during that period we might identify captain material and make him vice for a year or two while during that period learning from a more experienced pro.
    You are probably right though, Cahill won't come here anyway!
     
  22. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Yes but if he's first choice next season then it's been a terrible summer's recruitment.

    I said last pre-season that he should be taking the Charlie Austin role of coming on towards the end of the game and either helping us see out the game or helping us get back in the game and I stand by that.

    He shouldn't be first choice if we have any intention of moving to the next level.

    That being said, if we sign nobody up front, which is what I expect, then I have no issue with him carrying on doing what he does.
     
    Burnsy likes this.
  23. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Sorry. But no one is questioning what he’s done over the years. And on a separate thread I said to @lowerrous that it wouldn’t be so easy to just replace our 4th highest ever scorer on a whim. But your post is very yellow-tinted. You can be a fan as well as being realistic about matters.

    Not one person is foolish enough to take for granted what he’s done. But go on a downwards spiral very quickly? I think you under-estimate how far the club has come.
     
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  24. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Agree with that - but am massively in disagreement with the comments about him being ‘in’ with referees. There’s far too much evidence over the past 2 years to say its the complete opposite.

    He’s allowed to talk to officials in his role as captain - but I’d be very surprised if they don’t all think he’s a ****.
     
  25. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse Strangeland

    Good thread.

    I think as much as Troy is and will be a Watford legend, it’s time to start phasing him out. She isn’t on his side and his influence is diminishing.

    My problem is I’m not sure Gracia would want to ‘rock the boat’ so to speak, he seems to speak very well of Troy whenever questioned.
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  26. Horace_goes_up_north

    Horace_goes_up_north First Year Pro

    I thought Cleverley would make a good step up to Captain just before he got injured.
     
  27. Oscar calling

    Oscar calling Squad Player

    Doucouré. Might persuade him to stay.
     
  28. brinnyboy1985

    brinnyboy1985 First Year Pro

    I do think we’re still vulnerable however far we know the club has come. Whoever the club recruits upfront it is unlikely it’ll be an established premier league forward and ready to lead the line consistently from the off next season.

    For that reason it’ll be likely we’ll start with Troy upfront and if that’s the case we’ll need him being the leader again and should be given the armband
     
  29. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Reservist

    Lloyd Doyley?
     
  30. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Return of Fessi?!
     
  31. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Is this right?

    1 pen in the Prem all season & Deeney is sent after 2 mins vs the @rse.

    Not sure he’s a Svengali/David Blaine figure.

    More borderline irritating to refs.
     
  32. hornetgags

    hornetgags McMuff's lovechild

    Can we have a new Tennille while we're at it?

    That joke would have killed on a 1970s forum.
     
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  33. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Who’s the mysterious ‘She’?

    ‘Her indoors’ Mrs Pozzo?
     
  34. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Logically, isn’t it funny only we had had a previous Tennille?

    The Captain pegged out in Jan.

    Daryl Dragon.
     
    hornetgags likes this.
  35. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    My observation is that Deeney is poor leader on the pitch & that it would be major boost to the squad to replace him.

    I don’t see him as hungry & I don’t see him inspiring the team.

    Deeney the player is a separate item. It would be disappointing if we don’t prioritise an upgrade soon.

    The club legend guff is a red herring. Luther is a club legend but he doesn’t play in the first team any more.

    I wish he had on Saturday.
     

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