The Second Coming Of Quique Sanchez Flores

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Manatleisure, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. IRB

    IRB THe artist formally know as ImRonBurgundy?

    Can't wait to boo this **** on Sunday
     
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  2. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    I expect that's the reason Virgil Van Dijk at 72% tackle success cost an awful lot. When you do need to make a tackle make sure you win it. Whereas Ake is only successful in 6 out of 10 tackles. Van Dijk stats shows also shows he makes fewer tackles and more clearances. He also wins lots of headers.

    Ake losses nearly half of his aerial battles; Cathcart wins more than 55% of his.

    For a similar number of games. Cathcart (127 games) 752 clearances, Ake (121 games) 623 clearances. Van Dijk (123) games 777 clearances of which 452 are headed clearances.

    I am still not convinced about Ake. He is still young and in a better team, I am sure he would prove to be a great player. But at the time he went to Bournemouth as a central defender (and with us he played fullback), was Gino mad not to spend £20 million on him - I am not so sure.

    In the context of this thread the relevant part. is can QSF set up the team with the players he has to tighten up the defending and start to winning games. In at least Cathcart he has a player on par statistically with Ake to do so.
     
  3. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Let’s not forget that Ake went to Bournemouth on loan at first. He cost £20m the year after.

    Ake was very good for us. But we wouldn’t have got him for £20m immediately after and it likely would have been another loan as Ake signed a new 5-year contract at Chelsea after his loan with us. I definitely remember it being said at the time that we went back in for another season-long loan and he chose Bournemouth.

    It’s a hypothetical situation - because I don’t think the chance to sign him permanently was ever available to us.
     
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  4. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Shame he's out this weekend !
     
  5. Sort of OK

    Sort of OK Reservist

    "Quique Sanchez Flores' comeback may not make sense to outsiders, but Watford fans - who know and trust the way their club operates - will get the need for more buckle and less swash."

    Guy Mowbrays' comments on the BBC match preview. One of the best comments I have seen to date I think.
     
  6. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    I don't remember seeing much 'swash' under the last manager.
     
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    It's gobsmacking how little knowledge pundits have, but feel totally qualified to make damning comments.

    Gino Pozzo is not insane. He doesn't sack managers because he likes doing it. In virtually every case, certainly when it comes to sacking a coach, it always follows a long run a bad results and a clear decline.

    We should not have been having the issues as we were under Gracia. A coach may have issues at the beginning, then once he sorts all that out it should be plain sailing. We seem to get coaches in, they sort out the mess and just as when it looks like every is falling nicely into place, it all goes wrong.

    Reasons are often given such as "the FA Cup run has distracted them" or "we're safe so they've just switched off". I don't think it's as convenient as that. I think our players only have an attention span of around 9 months. Once they are used to a new coach, they tend to get comfortable with him and they fall into that zone where you drop off your performance levels a couple of degrees.

    Watford do have good players, but they also have a lot of players that have to play at an 8 out of 10 of their ability in order to perform at EPL level. That's a big ask for a long period of time. They can do it, but it's hard to play at optimal levels for an entire season. I think this has a large bearing as to why we always tail off.

    Pundits seem to be oblivious to Watford's run of form. They see it as 4 games then we sack someone. What a basket case club. But it's clearly a lot more than that.

    You can stretch this back as far as a year to see things were not progressing under Javi. Take a snap shot of the last 38 games, an entire season, and we've only picked up just 39 points. That's not good enough, not for the players we have at the club. Look at more recent trends, and the results get worse, not better. We've not got loads of injuries or anything you could really attribute to the bad form, so the club were fully justified in hiring a new coach. Gracia show all the signs of running out of ideas. He was good for us, very good, but it was time to change in the end.

    I'm not sure how it will go with Flores. Anything is possible. If he's learned his lessons as to why it all went wrong last time, maybe he could do very well. It could equally go just a badly as it did in the end last time though. What's working against Flores is the next 5 games. They look horrendous for him. If he picks up more than 3 points from that lot, he'd have done very well.
     
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  8. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I’m a fan of the QSF appointment.

    My slight worry is the interviews he’s had this week - continuous mention of how ‘beautiful’ it was last time and how it won’t be easy to replicate. I hope he’s not pitching up with the idea of doing the exact same things. I’m convinced last time out it went sour largely because of the limitations of the squad. He doesn’t have that excuse this time.
     
  9. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    Great post, fact-based opinions are the best.
     
  10. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    But it doesn’t take into account factors such as who was available for the opponents in any given game, injuries, whether Bournemouth rested players in any games, style played by Bournemouth, tactics etc etc.

    Stats go only so far. But football is played on the pitch and not with a pen and paper. Somehow using numbers to say Ake wouldn’t have improved our defence is a bit silly. He’s clearly a superior defender to anything we have.
     
    The undeniable truth likes this.
  11. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Yes. Pereyra was the one that first came to mind when I wrote that.
     
  12. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Squad Player

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  13. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    He’s pretty much said today what we saw before we’ll be seeing again. Compact and then quick breaks, not too many passes, get it forward quickly. Said he might have changed in 3 years but his coaching style hasn’t and that we (the fans) know what we’ll be watching. Cleverley’s interview also suggesting is going to be a very clear and rigid system.
     
  14. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ores-insists-differences-watford-solved-adds/

    Interesting article from The Telegraph after today’s press conference. Says he was first contacted about the job immediately after the West Ham game.

    The article goes on to suggest that Gracia not integrating Sarr quicker was an issue as well. Have seen it said on SSN today that Gracia not using Sarr or Welbeck didn’t go down well.

    Gracia was unlucky with VAR not being used at Newcastle. But I think his actions after Newcastle scored were clearly the final nail in his coffin.
     
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  15. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    And that the cup final broke him. Join the club.
     
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  16. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Well, did anybody think there was some other reason?
    'Understands' - a good journalistic weasel-word: Implies he has sources beyond intelligent guessing, but doesn't actually state it.
     
  17. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Another interesting thing in that article is QSF saying that "I had recorded the Watford match [vs West Ham] because I was travelling" - before the Pozzos had even got in contact with him. If true, this means that either: he's a complete football fanatic who tries to watch most top flight matches; he still has a soft spot for the club and likes to watch them from a fan's perspective; or he maintained a slight suspicion that the Pozzos may one day be back in touch with him again in order to manage the club.
     
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  18. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Watford were probably the short straw. West Ham was probably what he wanted...
     
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  19. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Couldn't see West Ham being especially eager to replace Pellegrini with QSF.
     
  20. EnjoytheGame

    EnjoytheGame Reservist

    Oh! Well, I'd consider myself liberal in most terms but it's surprising how many in the media, get it wrong. Calling our old new head coach Quique Flores is like saying Pep Sala or Rafa Maudes or even Javi Carlos.

    Spanish male surnames consist of father's surname (Sanchez) and mother's maiden name (Flores) in that order but convention means people usually drop their mother's surname. As I understand it, Quique prefers to keep the Flores part because it's a famous name in its own right in Spain because his mother used to be an actress and his aunt (on his mother's side) was a famous flamenco dancer called Lola Flores.

    Maybe we should call him Sanchez Flores when we win and Useless Get Out Of Our Club when we lose. That's the convention.
     
  21. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    “Ake loses nearly half his aerial battles. Cathcart wins more than 55% of his”

    This is pretty much the same thing?
     
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  22. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Yeah or he's just made it up to impress gullible watford fans.
     
  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    So Watford entered talks with Flores after the West Ham defeat. The board had concerns over Gracia after the cup final but decided to retain him as it would have been harsh to sack the manager who got Watford to a major cup final.

    There were concern over lack of defensive organisation and the capitulation against West Ham was the final nail.
     
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Hence why I said "if true".
     
  25. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    He should of gone in the Summer. The way we lost the final in terms with our utter dross we played in the final games
    should if sealed his fate.

    Even had we won the F.A Cup I still would of ditched him. The player's had clearly lost passion and it was not going to change.
    The performance against Brighton on the opening day was worse than Huddersfield and Muff a few seasons back. It was only
    marginally better vs Everton but we still lost. Against Spam we we're better but still lost due to awful defensive lapses. Whether
    that is/was purely down to the players not caring anymore or Gracia's inept attitude at team selection, formation and motivation
    it is unclear.

    Had we got QSF in during the summer before pre season had properly begun, that would of worked better. He could of drilled his
    new phillospophy into the players much sooner. I am almost certain we would not be bottom of the league if that had been the case.
     
  26. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    IMO it wouldn’t have been right to sack Javi in the summer. He achieved a lot and had earned the chance to start this season.

    But the Brighton match was so bad, it was clear that the end of last season was still haunting us.

    For me all the warning signs were there against Real Sociedad. They took us apart, yet we fluked a 2-1 win, when a 6-0 defeat would have been far more reflective.

    We did improve from that point but again we were so soft against West Ham. The chances we were giving them were easy ones.

    It’s no surprise Gracia was sacked, but the board did have to give him time. We’ve only really messed up a couple of games, which is not irretrievable.

    In fact if we win today, we’d have got the same amount of points from the corresponding fixtures as last season.
     
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  27. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Hindsight eh? Seems to me that's all you offer.
     
  28. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    No, it's a personal view and it's totally valid. As is all your views on such matters. I'm not getting into a debate
    about it, I whole-heartedly respect your view on it and anyone else's for that matter. I trust you are mature
    enough to do the same.
     
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  29. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Are you aware of what hindsight is? Did you make this suggestion immediately after the cup final? Did anybody?
     
  30. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, hindsight is a term meaning to predict what will happen.

    I stated this today... but no, I did not know this would happen. Looking back, nobody could of predicted the
    turn of events that unfolded. What was worrying to all of us was the bad form at the end of last season, and thus
    had the board acted in the close season on the basis of those results, things could of been different, or they could
    of stayed the same or got worse.

    As it turned out, they stayed the same. Would it of improved with a new coach? Maybe. Again, just my own personal
    view on it.
     
  31. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Jeez! You really don't know what it means do you??!!

    No, it means saying something should have been done at some time previously in the full knowledge of what has panned out subsequently. Which was what you did. Used the benefit of hindsight. And it's pointless and lazy and offers no insight whatsoever. The clue is in the 'hind' bit. Meaning back or after.

    If you'd said at the time that Javi should go now because things will only get worse, but he didn't go and then things did indeed get worse, then that would have been a prediction and your view would have been entirely justified. The opposite of using hindsight. But you didn't do that did you? Just trotted out something meaningless with the benefit of hindsight. It can also be called trying to appear 'wise after the event'.

    Now do you understand?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
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  32. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Administrator Staff Member

    Yes now I understand. Thank you for explaining it to me. On this occasion yes I was wrong, I apologise for that.

    Do I have to wear a Dunce's hat and go sit in the corner? Thank you CleyHorn, I totally respect your view
    and have learnt a valuable lesson.
     
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  33. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    No need to apologise. Stay in your current seat!
     
    SkylaRose likes this.
  34. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    Duxbury just spoke on SS. Made the same sensible points we have all heard him make before, he sounded very scripted though.
     
  35. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    I did. Feel free to check my posts.
     

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