The sneak. The tattler. The forelock tugger. The Uriah Heep. The oily backstabber. The one who's always running to the management with little tales. Obsequious. Fawning. Spineless. "Sack him sir! Not me!" grin, grin, grovel, grovel. I've encountered one or two like this in my working career. In particular a couple of jobs back, there was one who practically fell on his knees and wrung his hands whenever a manager appeared. One of the worst cases I've ever seen. I just heard from a past comrade that he'd been made redundant recently, so that didn't really work out for him, did it. I'd be interested to know how widespread these poor broken-spirited, despicable, brown-nosers are and whether their abject cringing before the big man has generally paid off for them or not. What has been the board's experience in this matter?
I'd suppose you'd be in the position of being the grandee to whom the worm fawns. Have you encountered many? How do you feel about them? Are they valued employees who let you know who's stealing your fries and getting high on company time, or do you see them as sneaks who, despite their kow-towing and scraping and boot licking, would stab you in the back just as quick as they're stabbing their mates? PS Me turning down that pay rise really, really upset you, didn't it? You've brought it up loads of times since and it happened one job and about three years ago! It also bewildered, confused and upset the bosses who offered it. They are obsessed with money and expect everyone else to be too. It rocked their little capitalist world to have their offer rejected.
Odd question Clive. Basically if someone does a great job they go far, do a **** job and they don't. Being an irritating creep doesn't help one little jot. However I remember in my early days as a junior manager being told useful advice when I moaned about a bit of a meh appraisal. My boss said "yes you've done a good job, but no-one knows you have. It doesn't matter whether you've actually done a good job or not, what matters is whether people think you've done a good job. Broadcast the stuff that goes well and bury the **** when it doesn't". Blindingly obvious really. Your whole career depends on how well people think you perform, not how well you actually perform. The 2 can be quite different.
You seem to have misunderstood the question, which is perhaps why you think it is odd. In my experience, the management's man most often does not do a good job. In fact, the creeping and crawling and management suckery can be a way to make up for their cack-handed inability to do the job properly. As for whether any junior managers or senior managers think I'm doing a good job or not, I couldn't honestly really care less. I suppose they know I'm doing a good job because there aren't any complaints from them and I know myself that I'm doing a good job. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in "broadcasting" or "burying" or any other office politics machinations. Your ex-bosses homespun wisdom that it doesn't matter whether you do a good job or not, is a very apt condemnation of the whole rotten capitalist system. Without wishing to offend, the fact you think that such an obviously bizarre absurdity represents "useful advice", is for me, quite mind boggling.
I've not been directly employed in a long time so I manage to avoid office politics and playing the brown nose game. I do know the sort you speak of and I think they are universally despised by both sides of the table. I remember one odious little turd I worked with who made me a delegate on his email while he went on holiday. I don't think he trusted anyone else who actually worked for him. Ironically he forgot to remove my access when he got back. I saw all the creepy emails he sent to senior management claiming credit for stuff he didn't do and bad mouthing any and everyone to make himself look better. I had great fun putting the the facts straight at my many chats with the aforementioned senior managers (subtly without revealing that I knew they had been told differently by the brown noser general). I'm pretty sure they had a poor opinion of him before but I made sure it was far far worse by the time I left.
I can't say I've ever come across someone like that. But if someone was stealing in a significant manner, I certainly wouldn't look down on someone that told me as a sneak. I always encouraged individual teams to police themselves as far as timekeeping, etc, was concerned. Seemed to work quite well, as peer pressure is more powerful than anything. But you turning down a pay rise didn't upset me in the least. It is illogical, and so I found it actually quite funny. The bosses, who are apparently "obsessed with money" end up with more of it, whilst you, who complains about your abject poverty regularly, are left in the same position. Smart move!
It wasn't meant to be useful advice for you. I didn't think for one minute that you'd care what management thought about you, we know you . I thought you were just asking a general question about whether people who brown-nose get further at work. My answer was that they don't but those that broadcast their successes and bury their mistakes do. Clearly it helps to do a good job as you've more to broadcast and less to bury !
Millennials (yes, them again) are remarkably poor at fawning. One of the worst aspects of the gig economy & the obliteration of 'jobs for life' mentality is that it has rendered workplace unctuousness as obsolete as spats.
Well we're not talking stealing in a 'significant manner'. That's something different. We're talking about a bit of stationary. Maybe using the office printer for something that isn't strictly work related. Creeping away a bit early. Getting back a bit late from lunch. Personal phone calls. Petty stuff. The sort of thing everyone does some times when they've been many, many years in the same job. On the other side, it's balanced out by finishing up the job on your own time after you should have finished. Putting an extra bit of polish on the job, out of pride and the pleasure of completing a good job, the bits you give back. But the little indiscretions are what are meat and drink for your workplace creeper. The sort of thing he can whisper in the boss's ear in the hope of currying a bit of favour. I suppose that back in school they were the little telltaletit who was always running to the teacher. While we're on the subject of bosses, has anyone ever had their boss and his wife over for dinner? They did it all the time in Terry & June and The Good Life - with hilarious middle class consequences - and as I am not privvy to the world of executives, I wondered whether this was at all grounded in reality? ZZ - were you ever invited to dinner by any of your wageslaves and if so, did they have to still call you 'Sir' at the dinner table and were there any comical lost trousers or self-sufficency related antics?
Then yes, this person is cancer and if I were the boss, I'd sack them because the poison they bring to a workplace is more damaging than 5 minutes of stolen time or a few sheets of copy paper.
Had a boss who basically did squat all and took the credit for all my work. Managed to get him to resign eventually. He went to a competitor so it was a go sit in the HR office until the end of the day until everyone has buggered off, clear your desk and escorted off the premises same day. As far as I knew he was in one day and gone the next shame, a bit of notice and I may well have been able to give him a suitable send off. Other than that I've always been in a position where there's only one or two higher up then me. I've not had any people like that working for me. (I've had a couple of pretty awful bosses though) No one has been my spy on the workshop floor. Never needed one. One person who worked for me got the arse because I was promoted ahead of them(with less time served), that was a bit difficult to deal with for a year or two. Other than that I've been responsible for recruiting my own staff and without exception, have picked good people. Only ever had to fire someone that was continually taking the pee and I inherited that recruit and a nother chap who was a bit sub par becasue his heart wasn't in it I convinced to go free lance and now he's incredibly successful. All staff take the pee to a certain extent. I'm on a work computer now for example, but mind you I'm not contracted to start until 9:00. Giving staff a little leeway makes them happier and more productive. A quiet word in the ear if they're taking the pee generally nips it in the bud.
It was my own direct actions that made my bête noire. I started work in a new position a couple of days early as to save the department a bit of time and money I would go through the induction/safety process with another newbie in the same, very large, research group (who was incidently also told to start a couple of days early to save the department a bit of time and money....). I see the only other person in the group that I've met, a grandly-behaved Israeli biologist who was on my interview panel and is, as I'm informed by one of my new colleagues, "...that good..." that she's actually in the 5th year of a three-year PhD programme (and known as "The Princess" behind her back). My and the other newbie are done by two o'clock so I ask her where 'we' can go somewhere local and decent for lunch/drinks - I'm given the name and location of a place and she thanks me for the kind offer but she's far too busy and doesn't socialise with "....other staff...". I point out that she's mistaken as I was referring to just myself and the other newbie she wasn't actually invited because as post-docs we don't socialise with students and that I found it curious that she's the only student in an office for doctors and that the students (crew) room is next door - but as myself and my new colleague weren't actually insured because we didn't officially start until the following Monday we couldn't help her shift her desk and filing cabinet into the correct office until then and left it at that. Fast forward a month later and by then myself and the other newbie (Tom) have started formal/informal weekly events (lunches/breakfasts/visits/post-work drinks or eats) for the multinational group (15 of us) of scientists, clinicians and engineers in the office as it's an excellent way to network and use the varied expertise and advice of all the team and morale and productivity of the entire group soars. "The Princess" is, pointedly, not invited to any of these. Light-hearted discussions fill the office ("The Princess" sits there seething) - my contribution to the one on whether we used our time as undergraduates wisely of "Yes! I spent 99% of my time getting pissed, smoking week and getting laid..." was met with much laughter and a very informed discussion on drugs policy (and ganja usage) followed. The following day I'm summoned to the Professor's office where I'm informed of the university's drug policy of monthly 'random' CDT and it's my turn. As it was for every single month for the following 36 months. Another discussion was how hard we worked to get 'doctored' I said that I worked very hard looking for the right stall in the Ukrainian market that had the right software on the laptop and a printer of high enough standard to produce a believable certificate which took me, literally, all morning. Cue gales of laughter ("The Princess" sits there seething) and general agreement that this was indeed evidence of all the independent study, time management, collation and presentation of information that doctoral studies should represent. The following day I'm summoned to the Professor's office where I'm informed that as I haven't produced any transcripts/certificates 'proving' my qualifications - could I get an independent statement fully detailing my doctoral work from the awarding body? I do but 'they' are uncomfortable with my lack of original 'O' and 'A' level certificates. "The Princess" has had enough about the levels of "...noise..." in the office and confronts me, warning me she's going to complain to the Professor as she's got the support of all my co-workers as before I arrived there was silence there so people could get on with their work undistracted. I'm just about to defend myself when a Chinese colleague (who was repeatedly asked for a statement regarding workplace racism when during an office discussion on obesity trends someone reportedly told him "...**** off! I won't take that from the Chinese version of the Michelin Man!") pointed out that if anyone placed a college scarf around the neck of the skeleton that stood directly in front of the office door there was to be silence in the office until it was removed by the same person and didn't anyone tell her about this rule?
In my experience of the workplace the people who suck up to the boss are 100% of the time f***ing useless. Nothing to add to that.
I found that to be partly the case but also a lot of them seem to be lonely, eager to please and feel acknowledged by someone "important".
Re your first paragraph, I would be more than happy with someone who worked like that, as long as there is a balance. I took over management of a largish facility with over 250 staff, and the first thing I did was smash the clocking-in machine off the wall. Literally. Within a year, every other building in the organisation had done the same (albeit with a screwdriver). Usually, if people are not treated like children, they act more like responsible adults, and most would take those perks reasonably. Your second paragraph describes someone that fortunately I never came across. They would get short thrift from me, and they would seriously become a less valuable member of staff - in my mind.. Short answer is yes to being invited to dinner by staff. But probably, for about 20 years, I tend not to accept, nor invite. Too often I find such occasions as a painful experience of one-upmanship and/or pretence and usually boring. Much rather go down the pub.
Tallies with my experience. Some people rely on nepotism to get ahead because they have no talent. The talented generally don't need nepotism; if the current job doesn't recognise their abilities, another company will. I've been on the short end of the stick thanks to a couple of "schmoozers" since moving over here, but every time I've come out ahead shortly afterwards and they end up getting found out. The best one was when my team got moved under a new manager due to restructuring, thus also changing the director we reported through to. The director was a complete arse (and still is, I'm sure). We're in the middle of a big project and some members of other teams are drafted in to help (despite the fact they have zero technical insight into the area and are thus practically useless). I'm doing 95% of the technical work (because I'm the only one who understands it) and frequently pulling all-nighters to get things done. We're told by our manager the team will obviously be downsized at the end of the project so most people will be moved elsewhere when done. Given that I started on the team and was doing virtually all the work, everyone knew I'd be one of those still on the team afterwards; it was only a question of who the other two would be. Fast forward to end of the project and the company decides to hire two people with prior experience in the new app, leaving one spot for the original team. People were, obviously, pissed off and felt they had been lied to (which they had). The last spot was given to the most useless person on the team. She did nothing to help the project, but spent her time schmoozing the director. For that he gave her my job and title (a job that she had no ability to do whatsoever). I get moved to another team that I have zero experience or expertise in, then very shortly afterwards the business has financial issues and has to lay off a bunch of people (healthcare, bad debt went up during the global financial crisis). I am, of course, immediately laid off after having been there for 7 years. I get 3 months severance. The manager I was transferred to tries to shake my hand on the way out; I point blank refused. I saw no need to salve his obviously guilty conscience. I land another job inside 2 weeks (like I said, I'm good at what I do) and am back at work in 3 weeks on a massive payrise, annual bonus and still having 9 weeks severance to come. Meanwhile, the schmoozer fails miserably at my job (of course), ends up getting moved to "Siberia" (AKA the help desk) and is quietly ignored. "Fake it 'til you make it" only works if you're actually intellectually capable of making it at some point further down the line. Sad thing is that job was great until the management change; my old manager and director were excellent. All it takes is a terrible management team to ruin a job, and it's generally the better staff who'll end up leaving in that situation because they have options. Sure enough, that's what ended up happening; all the talented people I used to work with left, and the useless ones went nowhere.
The Peter principle holds a lot of truth (and I count myself as an example in a previous job!). It observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence".
I've often thought there is a reversal in public sector where useless bstards are promoted elsewhere to become other peopel's problems. Explains a lot looking at the top brass in most public sectors.
A lot of people in the public sector organisation I work in just learn how to pass the rigid competency interview. Get all the competency indicators ticked off and you're in. My department have been giving out unseen tasks as part of the interview process so as to dilute the competency aspect of it and see what people can actually deliver.
Oh competencies. So infuriating. I work in the civil service and applying for jobs is so mind numbing. That said, i did succeed in my interview last week. I genuinely think the competencies arent their main focus. If you show common sense and can think quickly on your feet when they throw a curveball out there, thats what impresses them more. But yeah, a lot of people will learn their answers off by heart and end up useless in the actual role itself!
I was reading through this thread thinking doesn’t sound like my experience then read this and couldn’t agree more In addition anybody good at their job finds it hard to progress as generally their useless ******* of a manager likes to take all the glory and keep anybody good underneath them to keep them safe in their own jobs
