The Championship 2020-21

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Markoa$, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. Give over

    To come top 2 we need at least 2 forwards on 20 a season form; in 14/15 we had 3

    We have zero

    We're not finishing ahead of Brentford, Bournmouth, Norwich or Swansea; 5th or 6th is our likely finish
     
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  2. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    And even with 3 strikers like that, we needed a crazy run at the end of the season to guarantee it.

    Norwich have been described as playing poor this season yet lead the way, Bournemouth have PL level players who are motivated to get back up, Brentford have a far better squad than us. Swansea proved yesterday that they have more heart for the fight and strikers that can score goals. Can't see us overhauling them with our current crop of strikers and midfielders.

    Just like when we came down with Boothroyd, we'll be lucky to scrape the playoffs and if we do, we'll be embarrassed in the away leg - probably in front of rabid fans, and go quietly into the night.
     
  3. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    We’ve got 1 striker who never looks like scoring because he can’t run and sits on the centre circle waving his arms for 90 mins and we’ve got 1 striker that gets in to decent positions but has virtually no technical ability whatsoever.

    Get JP back in ASAP, give Perica a chance, sign a new forward, I don’t care. Just get those two out of the squad, for the mental health of all fans.
     
  4. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    What is baffling is that the owners don’t seem to realise that.

    It’s not as if they inherited Vydra or Igahlo (fair enough they did Troy) and have a different way of doing things. They bought them in and they both scored 20+ a season and they know, from experience, that is is the most nailed on requirement for promotion.

    Yet here we are with four recognised strikers available who have THREE goals from open play between them at nearly the half way point of the season.

    It’s quite incredible they have overlooked such a fundamental requirement for promotion, or indeed have got the club to the point that we can’t even afford to address such a basic and fundamental issue.

    If it’s the later there really was no point in even trying to get promoted, we’d have been better off just selling every single asset at any price and paying up the big contracts, because without a 20 goal a season striker you don’t get promoted from the championship, so what is the point of having our current ham fisted half way house approach that is doomed to failure.
     
  5. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

    So Cheats and Brentford to finish in the top two. We will finish midtable.
     
  6. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    Just as an aside to this, the xG sums it up perfectly. I’m not normally one for all those made-up stat kinda nonsense normally but in this case, it demonstrates what we can see watching each game.
    Deeney, over three games, has a xG of 0.4, meaning from the opportunities he’s had in those games you could expect him to score 0.4 goals. Terrific work from our no. 9 that. Well done Troy, you are achieving your xG to the nearest whole number. Keep well away from the opposition goal big man and you’ll have a great season.
    Gray meanwhile has an xG of 3.5, so he’s getting enough chances to score a goal a game, but doesn’t have the ability to finish any of them. Again, wonderful stuff.
     
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  7. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Even discounting teams that win most games 1-0 and go straight back down I'm sure there have been plenty of teams that have got promoted without having a 20+ goal a season player - I think I recall at least one team that went up without even having any players in double figures. Swansea's top scorers at the half-way mark are Ayew and Lowe on only 8 goals each, and no other player comes close.

    More important is to have at least a half-decent away record, I can't recall any teams that went up from the Championship without that. Without a drastic improvement on just 5 away goals by the New Year (and now it seems we no longer have the decent defence to grind out results) it'll be lower play-offs and semis at best.
     
  8. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    West Brom actually got promoted in second spot literally five months ago with a top scorer on 10 league goals (officially, two, joint: Charlie Austin and Hal Robson-Kanu). Their next best was their star winger, Matheus Pereira, on eight, and Grady Diangana, also on eight. Below that we have Matt Phillips on seven, and then it drops to a centre back, Semi Ajayi, on five.

    So it is perfectly possible to get automatics without absolutely blasting your way to promotion, but what you have to be doing instead is consistently providing resolute, solid performances without giving up many goals.

    We could just about still be said to be qualifying for that option, but that's a bit of a house of cards, and without a first choice/best defensive midfielder, it looks a lot shakier, and the vast space afforded Swansea around our box yesterday showed that in stark relief.

    That is also still 36 goals over the season from their top four scorers - as wfcsinatra revealed so horrifically yesterday evening, our top four scorers are collectively on 16 as it stands, one game away from the exact halfway point of the season. So, even to reach the dismal heights of a West Brom promotion template, we will need to up our scoring game considerably enough.
     
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  9. StuBoy

    StuBoy Forum Cad and Bounder

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  10. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    I think a lot will depend on this transfer window and who sells who and who comes in. I don't get the bed wetting just yet we have just beaten the league leaders at home fairly comfortably and limited them to basically nothing, Swansea away is one of the most difficult games of the season and fair enough we were crap but we started the game with what I believe is our 4th and 5th choice centre backs and Ngakia at left back and also our best midfielder who is one of the best in the league is still getting to fitness and we haven't replaced Capoue yet. If we get our centre halfs, Massina and Hughes fit and find an athletic ball winning midfielder then we have every chance of going up. Yes we still need a striker but I don't see the club signing one.
     
  11. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Since the season stats thread hasn't been updated after yesterday's game, I thought I'd point out that we are actually only one point behind both 2005/06 (which edges out 2014/15 as my favourite season in the second tier, if not favourite Watford season altogether) and 2014/15 after the same number of games (we had 38 points in 22 games after indifferent runs). Given our performances during most of this season so far, I'm surprised it isn't much more!

    In 2000/01 and 2007/08 we had 40 points after 22 games, and 1998/99 37 points - pretty close run thing...
     
  12. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    This post is like dissociative identity disorder in written form. How can you say that a lot will depend on this transfer window and who comes in, and that you don't get the 'bed wetting', and also that you don't see the club signing a striker? That in itself is a contradiction, surely.

    There are rather a lot of 'ifs' there, aren't there, and Hughes 'getting to fitness' is a bit of a white wale really, isn't it? He's played 70 minutes this season. And if it's merely a question of 'getting him fit', why did he play one minute against Swansea, when in the previous game he played 16, and we weren't even losing?

    'If we get our centre halves fit' - since the Norwich two are the same as the Swansea two, are they getting all the credit for the Norwich victory, or all the blame for the Swansea loss; which one is it?

    Also, beating the league leaders at home doesn't mean anything. That's just standard' we're expected to win home games. It sort of misleadingly implies we beat them at their home, but we didn't, which is a caveat that actually would have been worth mentioning.
     
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  13. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett First Year Pro

    Which team wouldn't we swap our "strike force" with ?
    Serious question
    Discuss
     
  14. I Blame Bassett

    I Blame Bassett Squad Player

    I suppose Juventus is out of the question?
     
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  15. Davy Crockett

    Davy Crockett First Year Pro

    Touche

    Apart from Juventus then

    You happy now ? lol !!
     
  16. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    It is not a contradiction; I said a lot would depend on this transfer window across all of the clubs competing for promotion. I don't get the bedwetting; many suggest that we have no chance of finishing in the top 2 yet if we are to win our game in hand which is very winnable we are 3 points from 2nd place, that is without a goalscorer. There may be some ifs there; however, the ifs I have mentioned are not unrealistic, I was talking about getting injured players expected back soon back to fitness, two of which have featured a small part in our last couple of games. No not all of the blame but is it not possible that they played well against Norwich but shown some vulnerabilities against Swansea? I think the fact that we can beat Norwich and limit them to so little is worth mentioning when talking about whether we have the ability to achieve automatic promotion, whether that is home or away. Also is it misleading? This is a Watford fans forum, and I am sure all of our fans know that we played Norwich at Vicarage Road.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  17. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    It is misleading in that it implies a greater positive to be drawn from the result than there actually was.

    In terms of the 'game in hand' don't forget that both Brentford and Bournemouth have games in hand too - if either of them (both better teams than us on current identity and form) win, we will in fact not be three points from the automatic places, but four, which is of course then already two positive results away from the position, with potentially four teams still above us in the table and half the season gone.
     
  18. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    I think for the comment to be misleading people would need to be misled, which clearly they wasn't because every one on here knows where the game was played and would have been able to work out what I meant. I also think you are down talking the result whether it was home or away it proves that we are capable of competing with the other sides in around the automatic places. To be fair I did forget that Brentford and Bournemouth never played, although 4 points with 24 games to play is not too much of a worrying deficit.
     
  19. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Personally, I believe that it is fairly worrying, given our relative form and the deficits that have been a feature of large parts of this season and were back on full display, after one single positive result, yesterday.

    To me, it seems far more likely that the performance level we've displayed for 3/4 of the season, and tallies with the display against Swansea, is indicative of where we truly are as a team at the moment rather than the one anomalous positive performance (the first under a new substitute teacher head coach) against Norwich.
     
  20. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    The bedwetting was about Pozzo incompetence getting us relegated. On reflection that would seem justified. Now that bedwetting is over, this new phase is just a dull realisation that we have a highly paid team who are no better than your playoff fringe championship grinders. What a miserable few years awaits us while we go about clearing these deadbeats from the payroll. Can’t wait to see Cathcart and Cleverly buzzing around in season 2022/2023.
     
  21. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    We're closer to 15th than 1st. Lol.
     
  22. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I should add I have nothing personally against Cathcart and Cleverly. They are decent pros, but the length of their contracts is a great illustration of our poor ownership. However, there are more pressing matters: Deeney to be released at end of this season and Gray to be released at end of 2021/2022. Surely our owners won’t be so stupid to extend those...........
     
  23. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    It was not what I was talking about, I was referring to so many of our fans stating that there is no way that we can finish in the top 2 despite being reasonably placed to do so. Hence the comment was in the championship thread and not the Pozzo's one.
     
  24. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    We could do I agree. Would take a significant uptick in performance all round however. Seems unlikely given we have a rookie manager and Deeney back as the main man.
     
  25. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    Agreed about Deeney, trying not to be so quick to judge the manager, good start against Norwich but disappointing against Swansea, but to be fair only we have a better home record than Swansea this season, therefore it was never going to be easy no matter who the manager was.
     
  26. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Please don’t make me wait until the end of next season to see the back of Gray.
     
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  27. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    Udinese? Oh, wait...
     
  28. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Sorry to nitpick but only we have a better home record than Swansea because they've just beaten us. Before yesterday's game, Bournemouth and Middlesbrough also had better home records and actually Norwich before playing us had a better away record than Swansea's home record before they played us, so following our win against them with at least a draw at Swansea wasn't too much to ask. And given Swansea had only scored 13 goals at home, to get nothing after taking the lead was really disappointing.

    Admittedly I didn't see the game, but it seems clear that the balance of the side is not right. At the start we were struggling to score (still not great despite a few high scoring matches later on) but we had a decent defence (before Huddersfield we hadn't conceded more than one goal in an away match) but that has gone to pot and the goals are drying up despite the promise showed against Preston. So what's the solution?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  29. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    Still, we were away to the team currently second in the league and have not lost a home game in the last ten. Swansea are clearly a decent side and one of the best we have played so far this season. Plus you are also comparing Swansea's points tally with other good sides.

    Huddersfield in fairness didn't really create anything against us there is no way we would have conceded two against them without calamitous play by Foster and Capoue. Yesterday we didn't look brilliant at the back I put that down to the players in defence and the quality of themidfield our midfielders couldn not get hold of the ball and kept kicking it back to them inveitably inviting more pressure on our defenders. I genuinely do believe that we look better with Kabasele and either Cathcart or Troost. Massina looks like he will be more than useful at this level. I don't think we are going to go to pot defensively. The goal scoring problem is there for all to see its as simple as Deeney and Gray are ****. As bad as we were in yesterdays game we want 1-0 and should have been 2-0 up if Gray could hit the target from two yards.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  30. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Had we played as we did in the first 20 minutes we might have got something but we stopped trying to attack and they could have scored 3/3 goals more but for Foster .

    Then we found ourselves behind so had to go for it but looked totally clueless really against a strong defence.

    Once again didn’t really test the goalkeeper did we?
     
  31. LondonOrn

    LondonOrn Reservist

    Sadly sounds a familiar story and how several away games panned out last season (Newcastle, Southampton, Villa, Brighton, Man Utd).

    Is fitness still an issue, is it a continuing lack of mental strength that causes the team to wilt when there is the slightest deviation from their way (mainly in away games) or is it both?
     
  32. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Well we seem to always pick up an injury or two in training each week so do think there is a fitness issue .
     
  33. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    Most teams are the same probably the lack of pre season and the amount of game being played.
     
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  34. lutonh8a

    lutonh8a Reservist

    I think it was definitely a lack of mental strength, I thought we were playing well until we scored and then for some reason the confidence was drained out of the players. We sat really deep and just kicked the ball back to Swansea. I am not sure if anyone watched the game on Swans TV but I did and you could hear Munoz screaming at the players to push up, this was even mentioned by the commentators in Swansea TV. I thought to myself at the time they have internalized Ivic's negative mentality and just looked like they were scared to try and pass, Swansea scoring was inevitable.

    What I like about the new lad from Scandanavia is he seems mentally strong and confident that is just observation from interviews I have seen and from what Danes and Norwegian fans have said. The Lord knows we need more players who are not mentally fragile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  35. Supertommymooney

    Supertommymooney Reservist

    Good points.

    We also need a striker who can kick the ball towards the opposition goal.
     
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