Squad Rebuild

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by wfcSinatra, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    I did think they lined up Success up to be Deeney's replacement but he is either injured or trying to fall over and win free kicks with a few fleeting moments of showing what he can do.

    Okaka was pretty useful but again either injured or just not able to play more than a half of football.

    When Deeney was injured sure Welbeck was lined up to replace him but also got injured ofcouse.

    I yes Gray must have played ... doing his usual stuff.

    Dawson, Cathcart might be decent if they are allowed to defend playing alongside a quick , ball playing partner who can concentrate for most of the game.

    Janmaat might never pass a medical surely ?!
     
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  2. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Yep, but a 3 out of 10 left winger with industry and a big lump who can hold the ball up are still more than we've offered since the restart.
     
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  3. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Dawson still has 3 years on his contract after this. We are his last big contract. I doubt anyone would offer him 3 years after the season he has had. That’s why he has minimal value.

    Nobody would pay a fee for Janmaat after his injury record the last few years.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  4. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    14 goals. And has started 36 games. So in just under 1 season worth of starting appearances he has scored 14 goals. Think someone said on the tele our top scorer this season is 6 or something.
     
  5. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Can anyone confirm, did we actually EXTEND Janmat's contract? A player who nobody else would want and who is so injury prone, that he barely plays half of the available games?

    I just can't even begin to understand.
     
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  6. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    What type of team are we trying to build?

    I’m watching Norwich vs. Brighton, and though both of these teams are essentially in the same situation we find ourselves, I can’t help but look at them with a sense of envy. Both clubs, despite their obvious size and financial limitations have a clear and obvious plan for the present, and a plan for the future. They have a philosophy in terms of the way they want to play the game, and they sign players who fit that philosophy.

    On a shoe-string, Norwich have built a squad of technical players, most of whom are a good age, with lots of room to grow and improve. Granted, they’ve had a hard season, but their philosophy will surely see them continue to build and improve. If they can hold onto to the core of their squad, you’d fancy them to come right back up. With another season of development, and additions, they wouldn’t be far from the level needed to survive and continue to grow.

    Equally, while Brighton have had a hard season, it’s obviously a year of transition, under Potter. He’s implemented a radically different style of play, and introduced several young, technical talents to his squad. With survival assured, I’m backing them to improve their squad over the summer with young, technically proficient players that have plenty of room to grow. I really rate Potter, and I think next season, they’ll survive comfortably.

    With this in mind, what are we trying to do as a team?

    We have a squad that’s an awkward mix of players too young/inconsistent to be trusted by a succession of managers, or too old and in decline. We don’t sign a certain type of player, or have an obvious philosophy. We’re neither powerful/nasty to play against, nor technically superior. We have players who need the ball into feet or space, such as Sarr/Pereyra/Geri, and a supply line that isn’t capable of doing that on a consistent basis in the form of Cathcart/Dawson/Doucoure/Masina/Foster. There’s no consistency to our squad, no obvious common traits in terms of character, or technical ability.

    There’s no consistency in the type of coach we hire, which has left us with a mish-mash squad, not particularly suited to one particular style of play. We’re stale. We’re old. We’re not good enough technically, nor spirited enough to overcome the deficiencies.

    Does anybody really believe that we need anything other than a total rebuild, irrespective of how this season plays out? Honestly, I’d be able to stomach relegation much easier if it was clear that we were building toward something, that we had a plan in place, a vision for how we’d play the game, and the type of consistency in players that fit this vision.

    This season is so hard to take, because it feels like the culmination of mistakes made over several years, through a combination of arrogance and ineptitude. We’ve had the time and financial strength to really build something on the pitch, and it doesn’t feel like we’ve come anywhere close to that.

    We’re a rudderless ship, weighed down by opportunity missed.
     
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    A good point well made but this just goes to show that goal stats are not everything. I don’t have any real animosity towards Gray as a person (although his recent ‘error of judgement’ was stupid) but my disappointment is that we paid a lot of money for a not very good footballer. There’s not a lot wrong with his goal instinct as these figures show but his footballing ability is so clearly not up to PL standard and this why he has started relatively few games over 3 years. Sometimes he comes on and scores an important goal but when he is given a start his lack of ball control means our attack loses all cohesion and then he’s quickly back on the bench again.
     
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  8. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    In February this year Janmaat signed a 2 year extension.
    The deal he had would have run out this summer, while the new contract was agreed late 2019 judging by the article below.

    He signed for £5m in August 2016 (source: club site) and has played 76 times.

    https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/s...hand-new-deals-daniel-bachmann-daryl-janmaat/

    In an interview in Holland recently (mid-June) he has stated he'll see out his contract here before returning to the Netherlands.

    https://www.tribalfootball.com/arti...maat-i-ll-return-to-holland-4329924#popup-sso
     
  9. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    He'll have started 35% of the games in his four seasons here by the end of this summer. Complete madness.
     
  10. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    Everyone knew what a sicknote this player was. Absolutely made of glass. For some insane reason, we believe another club will pay big enough money for him despite everyone knowing he's made of glass, so we give him a new contract.

    iTs tOO iNcREaSe hIs tRaNsFER VAlUe!
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  11. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Brighton don't seem to have financial limitations.

    According to Transfermarkt, in 2017/18 they bought Locadia (£15.3m), Izquierdo (£13.5m) & Proper (£11.7m).
    Total fees spent reportedly £60.3m.
    Transfer fees received? £0m

    2018/19 they got Jahanbakhsh (£17.1m), Bissouma (£15.2m) & Bernado (£9m).
    Total spend of £79.52m.
    Fees received? £12.26m

    2019/20 saw Maupay (£19.8m), Webster (£19.7m) & Trossard (£18m) arrive.
    Total spend was £69.3m.
    Fees received? £6.3m

    I realise tranfermarkt isn't 100% accurate but that is some serious spending for a side close to relegation.

    Norwich in the same period are the reverse.
    2017/18 they spent £13.6m in total and received £30.3m.
    2018/19 saw them spend £4.9m and receive £33.9m.
    2019/20 saw an outlay of just £7.93m and incomings worth £2m.

    It's hardly surprising on that one detail Norwich have struggled this season.

    As a comparison, this is our record over the same period.
    2017/18 - Spent: £64.3m. Received: £16.9m.
    2018/19 - Spent: £27.1m. Received: £46.6m.
    2019/20 - Spent: £43.2m. Received £22.9m.

    You're absolutely correct with regards to building an identity, a style of play. We just haven't got one while both Brighton & Norwich have.

    But in terms of transfer spending Brighton are way ahead of us with a transfer deficit of £190m.
    Norwich showed a profit of just under £40m in the same period and we made around £10m more than them.

    In this very small (and probably not 100% accurate re. actual sums paid out & received) example we're probably in the right position in the table.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
    luke_golden likes this.
  12. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    I can’t remember a huge amount of missed opportunities either in fairness. He’s not played a huge amount of games and he hasn’t suited our style of play in any way. The odd chance he has had, he’s tucked most of them away.

    Amazing that people get so upset with him over his fee...which presumably was agreed and signed off by Giraldi or Pozzo. Why would Gray turn down a big contract at Watford? The fact we’ve overpaid for a player totally unsuited to our style of play shows Giraldi up more than Gray.
     
  13. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I think you're forgetting some of his misses. The guy has missed lots of glaring sitters, though it's worth mentioning that Deeney rarely gets into a position to miss any chances.
     
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  14. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I dunno, his misses seems to be in the papers most days. Difficult to forget.
     
  15. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    The other thing you have to remember about opportunities is that up to now we have mainly played 4-2-3-1 and the 1 is the captain of our team Troy Deeney. Gray cant play up front on his own he needs to play in a 2 as LB Horn and myself and perhaps others have mentioned before. We needed a goalscorer that could score almost every week as a sole striker to dislodge our captain, and on the Pozzo budget that was always going to be a big ask. If Gray played in a front 2 more regularly he would've done better still I think for goal returns, but its not a system that we've been using much. Gracia and our friend Marco Silva very occasionally switched to a 4-4-2. I wouldn't say Deeney is particularly technically gifted either, but he can play the sole striker role better than than anyone else currently in the squad. He's a big lump and we lump it up to him. Sometimes its not just about the player, its the system.
     
  16. foxywfc

    foxywfc Reservist

    Gray should be fired. Never mind taking a seat on the bench.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I'm surprised Gray hasn't had a start tonight given the dreadful recent performances of others. Deeney clearly undroppable.
     
  18. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    I can think of plenty of Gray sitters missed off top of my head, but hard to get angry at him when he's had so few starting opportunities last two seasons.
     
  19. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    It's looking that way.
     
  20. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I find it quite easy.
     
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  21. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Think Quina might be the most overrated player we've ever had judging by the comments on here and some of the other threads. Nice tricks and scored a couple of good goals in nothing games but has never looked anywhere near being ready to regularly start in the Premier League and would probably struggle in the Championship. Think he'd be far better suited to playing in La Liga.

    As for Dele-Bashiru, one goal against Tranmere aside, he's looked like a 15 year old who's only playing in a man's game because one team had ten players so someone got their son to make up the numbers.

    If we go down, these are not the players that are going to get us back up.
     
  22. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    I’m not entirely sure if Norwich are a team we should aspire to be like, and I say that genuinely as in I don’t know if it would be good or not.

    They’re your definitive yo-yo team, as and when they get promoted they make absolutely no attempt at staying up in terms of financial outlay, none at all. They just treat it like another championship season and bank the money. They’re just about the only team I can think of who wouldn’t have sacked their manager in their position, but they know he’s a good manager and that staying up is a near impossible feat unless you spend at least some money.

    So they’ll constantly yo-yo between the championship and the PL getting promoted and relegated, when they get promoted they’ll almost certainly be rock bottom for most of the season. Would that be enjoyable?

    It doesn’t matter what sort of system they’re trying to implement, they’ll have no desire to keep any of their players that emerge as PL standard and of the manager eventually works miracles he’ll be poached and they’ll be back to square one.

    Some of us may enjoy being like Norwich, but ultimately staying in the PL long term requires money to be spent, it’s just how you spend it.
     
  23. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Perhaps my post didn’t make it clear, so I’ll clarify. Norwich are the budget-friendly example of club with a clear identity and a plan for how they want to play football.

    It’s a philosophy that can be replicated across all levels at the club. They sign players specifically who fit that mould. Typically they sign young players, with good technical skills, who have room to improve a great deal.

    If Farke is poached, they’ll hire a coach who’ll play in a similar way. It’s the opposing being back to square one. There is a consistency that comes with having a philosophy and hiring people who fit that. The players they’ve signed will be useful to the next coach.

    When you take a look at our transfer policy, there’s no clear plan. We don’t sign players with common characteristics. We have a jumbled squad of misfits, and absolutely no identity in terms of the type of football we want to play, or the type of footballer we want to sign.
     
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  24. Moosegasm

    Moosegasm Reservist

    An in form Wellbeck is an infinitely better lone striker than Deeney
     
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  25. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    He isn't, he's too lightweight. He's a different type of player. You need to be big and strong and not get bullied when the ball gets hoofed up to you which is the style of play that Watford FC has instilled into itself the last few seasons. If we played it on deck like a Man City or a Tottenham, or what a Norwich or a Bournemouth system of play can do moving the ball around (though its not helped them this season with their defences), then I would agree with you when or if the 'in form' Welbeck comes along. But most of our players lack the skill of keeping the ball for too long, they can't wait to get it over to the next person. That's where a squad rebuild would be welcome, pay the money for more players with technical ability so we can change the system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  26. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Have you considered that we could stop "hoofing" it up to Deeney if he wasn't playing?

    A couple of seasons ago (or maybe it was three) when Deeney was out the side for spells, injury and suspension, it completely transformed the way we played - for the better. I don't think we have got the players to play a long ball game at all, and we are more suited to a short game.
     
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  27. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    Point 1 - I recall Gray came in we were still doing it, and he was no good at it. If the others players can't keep it then we tend to hoof it.
    Point 2 - Three or so seasons ago isn't really a useful example, the last spell he wasn't playing we were actually worse. That I remember clearly.
     
  28. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    Deeney gets bullied every time the opposition centre back is over 6’2” anyway. He just wins a few aerial battles in 1 game out of 20 and perpetuates this stereotype that he’s a brilliant, physical target man.
     
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  29. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Best football we've played in our whole time in the Premier League was under Silva when we had a front three of Richarlison, Gray and Carillo.

    And we played with various combinations of Kabasele, Mariappa, Prodl, Kaboul, Britos as our centre backs. Hardly that much better on the ball!
     
  30. CaveManHornet

    CaveManHornet Reservist

    Bob the builder couldn’t fix this mess of a team
     
  31. Markoa$

    Markoa$ Squad Player

    Totally forgot about Carillo being with us.
     
  32. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Too many of them are passed their best now - see my comments in this thread: http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/chelsea-3-0-blunderford-fc-04-07-2020.57172/page-13
     
  33. lowerrous

    lowerrous First Team

    Not sure about Sema, but Okaka would definitely be our best striker now were he still here.
     
  34. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    Exactly. I watched Palace vs Burnley just to watch the facts you set down. Burnley no big man up top just Matty Vydra. They adapted their style perfectly. Lots of movement and trying to hit first time balls for Vydra to run on to. Dwight McNeil was absolutely fantastic in this game. He was everywhere picking the ball up from deep and just running directly at the Palace backline. They were popping one touch passing around and looked good. Not everything worked but they came out winning 0-1. So if Burnley can adapt to no big man up top so can we.
     
    zztop likes this.
  35. Carpster

    Carpster Squad Player

    Totally agree. When we were in sync with each other it was fantastic to watch. Dare I say we had a swagger to our play.
     

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