Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Sting, Aug 12, 2019.
I’ve toyed with the idea of playing Welbeck, Sarr, Deulofeu and Pereyra in the team at the same time, but in reality it wouldn’t really work. That’s more a Fantasy Football team.
We’d need more than two holding midfielders, unless you elect playing 3 at the back. A kind of 3-3-4 formation?
In the real world, I think the only way we can do this it to play 3 of the 4 players. Be it Welbeck, Deulofeu, Sarr or Pereyra, Welbeck, Sarr.
I’d be happy with a front line like that. That way you’d have real quality on the bench with either Pereyra or Deulofeu to call on.
I need we need a central midfielder such as Hughes, Cleverley or Quina. They would be playing in their more orthodox positions, which is another good adjustment.
Fair observations. I think in games where we’re looking to be more solid, you’d see somebody like Cleverley playing the 10 role, more for his ability to press and work hard, rather than what he can do with the ball. Or you could have Chalobah/Quina lining up alongside Capoue, with Doucoure given more license to break, making us more physically imposing and solid.
But in games where we expect to be able to dominate possession and need to break teams down, I think there’s no reason to think that we couldn’t accommodate the attacking talent we have and still expect to do well with Capoue and Doucoure playing with more discipline. Our full-backs would be relied on less to provide width, so we’d hopefully find them caught out upfield less.
The good thing about playing 4-2-3-1 with a No.10 is that you can easily drop to 4-3-2(wide)-1 with the No.10 dropping back into a central 3.
It’s the formation that suits the squad best IMO as we have a number of players who can play within it - except maybe for a lone striker (at least until Welbeck is capable of playing regularly).
Given our awful defence I think we need to lay more at the back
I agree that this may boil down to Deeney but I would prefer to see a different outcome to you. Deeney could be dropped as it was a poor performance on Saturday but just look at how we have played in the past when he is suspended/out of the team. The games after the Arsenal sending off were a glimpse of quite how bad we are when he isn't in the team. In fact the slump in form seem to stem from the Arsenal game. I would prefer a motivated Deeney in the team as that seems to raise the level of the players around him. I am not sure how you get Deeney more motivated (please, no boring food based jokes in response) but that is why I am not paid the big bucks.
We looked poor last season without him because we stuck to the same rigid setup and formation that is pretty much designed round him and for him.
I’m not advocating sticking to the same system and dropping him. I’m saying the formation needs to change and if he can’t adapt to that then so be it - he should fit around what’s best for the team and not vice versa.
If he’s playing poorly, his leadership should still be a plus to the team. But it’s not. On Saturday (and in the Cup Final) there was no leadership at all. His head is the first to drop.
For me, it’s adapt or go. If Troy can’t fit himself into the system that’s best for the team, so be it.
Can now enjoy rest of season.
LG, you're on fire!
Have you been eating fish?
I’m training someone at work. He’s at the point where I feel mostly comfortable to let him do his thing, which leaves plenty of time to dedicate to forum activity.
You could be a one man microcosm of Clive's vision for future society.
This forum will be an inferno of activity by the end of the season.
It’s really quite lucky that we lost at the weekend. A routine victory would have likely led to a limited range of options for potential discussion, leaving me somewhat lacking in material to stimulate posts.
The only sliver of hope is that Gracia was forced into playing last season's tired and ineffective formation. Welbeck, Sarr, Quina all out, Pereyra not fit to start limited his options.
He took a gamble on Deulofeu who clearly wasn't fit either but he decided that as long as he could move, he was a better option than the world's slowest winger Calamity Ken.
Given the cast list of players out or not fully fit, I'm not surprised he went with what he knew. If he carries on setting us up like that though, I suspect he'll be gone well before Christmas. A stubborn inability to change formation and tactics even when the wheels have come off has done for Flores, Mazzarri and Silva. It'll get Gracia too if he continues.
We may be even more limited next weekend if the others aren’t deemed ready and GD is now out too !
Is he really? Wow.
These forums are fantastic. I never knew that eating fish could set you on fire.
For those who consider Watford to be a club who should be pushing for that Europa league place, here's a reality check on where we actually are as a club.
Over the past 35 Premier League matches, we've picked up 38 points. So had that converted into a new season, we'd still be 2 points shy of that magic 40 point total with three to play.
I would argue, even though we achieved 50 points last season, we're still a 40 points a season side. Only that anomaly of 4 straight wins at the beginning of last season pushed us beyond that level. The last 35 games are a far greater indicator as to where we are as a club.
For me, that's walking a tightrope. It wouldn't take much to topple us and is too close for comfort, IMO.
40 points has been, and will always be, the real target for each season. Reaching 50 points was a great achievement, and I doubt we will again. It was only achieved, as you say, due to that amazing 12 points from 4 games at the start.
No mention of Gray in Burnsy's post (actually three posts ago) despite his excellent pre-season. Substitute the name Gray for Deeney and it's fine. Troy has provided excellent service over the years but, if he is indeed 'too big a name to drop', then that is now hampering us.
As the figurehead of the club his profile is perhaps so dominating that it might now be holding us back as opposed to the very positive thing it's been up until now.
Let me get this right, you're saying the first 4 games of last season don't really count because we won them?
What I'm saying is we have picked up 38 points from the last 35 matches. You can make your own conclusions from that, but it's MY OPINION that the last 35 games is a better indicator as to where we are as a club. It's a very long stretch of consecutive matches to be judged on. I believe adding the first 4 games, for whatever reason it occurred, has artificially made people think we're a LOT better than we actually are. Since those first 4 games, we've settled down to a much lower points return, which is more in character to where we actually are as a club.
You can disagree with that suggestion, but 38 points from the last 35 Premier League games is a fact.
Here's another fact for you. Last season we got 50 points from 38 games and reached the cup final (ok, we all know what happened). In MY OPINION we are a LOT better than you think we actually are
Well that's good then. I don't have a problem with your opinion. Hopefully we'll win another 4 on the spin to raise the bar again this season.
The sequence of results is irrelevant. The final tally at the end of the season is all that matters and I see no reason why we shouldn't achieve last year's total. Although, if we put in another performance like Saturday's against Everton this weekend, I reserve the right to change my mind!
Recent results are more relevant to future prospects than results from a year ago. The last 35 games are more relevant than the first 4 games of the last 39. Tracking about 40 points feels about right for this team/squad....IMO of course....
This assumes that with a change of system another leader will emerge which I cannot see happening among the current squad. IMO that isn't Deeney's fault and is possibly poor planning by Scott Duxbury and the rest of the panel that looks at incoming players. I take your point that Deeney didn't have a good day on Saturday but that went for all 13 players involved.
I don't see any leadership on the pitch apart from Deeney whichever system we play. For that reason alone, while he may need to adapt, we cannot do without his leadership.
I'm not basing my optimism on the fact that we won our first 4 games last season! I just feel HB is omitting the first 4 results in an attempt to support his narrative.
I've not omitted the first 4 results, as some sort of hidden agenda. I just wanted to point out, in case some people found it of interest, that the last 35 games have produced 38 points. I was surprised myself when I looked at that.
You have the opinion, that as long as we get the points, it doesn't matter how we get them. If that's your view that's fine. But, maybe, just maybe there is a trend going on with the sequence of results. For arguments sake, we win the first 16, draw the next 2, but then go on a losing run of 20 matches. We'd still have 50 points, but the last sequence trend is the thing to look at. 20 defeats on the spin would be extremely worrying as that trend looks like one which is continuing.
Adversely, had we lost the first 20, then drew 2 but won the last 16, then everything in the garden would be rosy. We had clearly improved from those early days.
I think continuing trends have value, and is something people should be aware of.
You say leadership on the pitch apart from Deeney - I’d like to hear of a couple of instances where he has shown great leadership on the pitch in the last year. I can’t think of any.
A good off-field captain maybe - but I don’t see it at all on the pitch.
The only trend is that like every other team outside the top 3 and bottom 3 we are inconsistent. Like very other mid-table side we are 3/4 good results away from a top 6 place or 3/4 bad results from relegation. You can divide the season up anyway you like but that is the reality
I don't think you can just say that his leadership resulted in certain performances but IMO when he was not in the team we looked much worse than when he played. I put that down to his influence as captain but I understand if you disagree.
I think it's clear to most that Deeney is no longer the leader he once was. Teams need to base their system around the squads star players - big name he might be but star player he is not! Deloufeu, Capoue, Doucoure, Sarr... these players must be the new spine for the team. And with other players of undeniable quality like Welbeck and Pereyra to fit in it is so, so obvious that a change is system is needed. Scott and Javi aren't stupid and must see this, but I am very concerned about our pre-season - is it just me or did we play fewer matches than in previous years?
Wouldn't most clubs in the league be in danger if you took away their best 4 game run?
I certainly don't believe we can ever be safe, with our current defence and fall-apart mentality, but we do have the quality of players that allowed us to go on a 4 game winning streak. I doubt most relegation-threatened sides will be able to match that.
Ok, let's reduce the scope, seeing as some are saying the last 35 games are deliberately removing 4 wins.
Most would agree, the last 10 games is a good measure of current form and how well the club is performing in recent times.
If we look at this we've picked up 7 points from the last 10 matches. I think you can look at any snapshot going right back to 35 games to see a points average of around the 1 point per game mark. We've been consistently like this for a long time now....for around 11 months. It's a long time.