Safe Standing

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by UEA_Hornet, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I posted about this in the stadium expansion thread but it sunk without a trace around other posts.

    So, the government yesterday rejected a request from West Brom to turn the stand behind the goal which is shared by home and away fans partly into rail seating:

    There's a bit of extra info here:

    That's despite the WBA proposal being back by their safety advisory group made up of the police, ambulance, local council etc.

    I wonder if this risk-adverse decision will backfire on the government? They've been more than happy to weigh in with comment on issues like FA governance and equality in the game, but seemingly won't look at changing an outdated stance on how people should spectate at football games. Are they frightened of the Hillsbrough lobby, who they've spent years courting?
  2. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    I guess no one wants to be the person to make the call, if there is then some kind of tragedy.

    It's absurd to think there could be another hillsborough at a modern day football stadium, but then I wouldnt want the responsibility on my shoulders.

    Admittedly I'm guessing as I havent bothered reading anything about the topic.

    Personally, I'm all for it. That being said, we are so tedious to watch I quite like sitting slumped in my seat.
  3. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    In a nutshell, yes.
  4. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    The Liverpool fans were asked about this and they seemed quite happy about safe standing but guess there will always be someone not so!
  5. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    The ideal is to sit in a standing area.

    No chance of seeing anything.
  6. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    So the "success" of it in Jockland is still being ignored?

    This is something that really strikes me as "odd" as any government's interference in the running of the country's FA means loss of that FA's "independence" and sanctions (expulsion?) from FIFA?
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  7. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    I well remember in the grim days of the early 90s sitting on the Vicarage Road end terrace before the game, at half time and then again at the end of the game waiting for the results to come through to see if we were doomed yet.
  8. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    I think I spent the whole Mike Keen era watching for the A to Z half time scores to go up.

    Like the old ‘tins’ on a cricket score board.

    Spoilt by my Furphy youth.

    No furby thing, please. I had vomit in my mouth last week.
  9. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    The only way we’ll get this back is if local politicians (with an element of accountability) can decide on the issue.

    CYA artistes like May & Corbyn won’t touch this.
  10. KelsoOrn

    KelsoOrn Squad Player

    It's all getting quite ludicrous now. So how will the government view WFC's latest initiative to encourage standing in a seating area?

    Maybe the government should simply encourage everybody to stay seated at all times. Never ever stand up. It is quite dangerous after all. That should facilitate working from home and reduce pressures on transport infrastructure.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  11. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Standing was never the problem at Hillsborough. The problem was too many people in too small an area. In fact, if Hillsborough had happened in an all-seater stadium the death count would probably have been far worse (assuming everything else stayed the same).
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  12. The main problem at Hillsborough was the "CAGEING" of the fans! Had the fences not been there, the fans could have escaped onto the pitch, and there quite probably would have been no fatalities had they been able to do so.
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  13. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I prefer an all seater stadium. Aesthetically, I like the look of it. However, I'm not opposed to a small area being allocated for standing, if that's what people want to do.
  14. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    Like many posters I am of an age where I don't mind sitting to watch football, but I still stand for the exciting bits at home games and I'm happy to stand at away games as necessary. However I think those involved in the safe standing campaign should now focus on the 'unsafeness' of the current arrangements, rather than the perceived benefits of safe standing (better atmosphere etc.). It's now clear that the government are not responding to these benefits so they should be educated as to the potential dangers of not making any changes, hopefully without an incident occurring to demonstrate them.
  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Well if they go down that route, they won't get very far. How many incidents of crashing have occurred in an all-seater stadium? The government will look at these figures before agreeing to any change. The fact is, all-seater works in making a safer environment for people to watch sport.
  16. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I've bruised my shins a couple of times celebrating goals.
    Jossy likes this.
  17. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    No, it doesn't. The all-seater aspect is circumstantial.

    Pack the same number of people into a caged all-seater area in the same way as Hillsborough unfolded and guess what would happen?

    What's made football safer is properly handled crowd management (i.e. making sure the right number of people enter an area instead of cramming everyone and their cat into one section) and removing the cages that prevented the Hillsborough victims from getting onto the pitch. The seating has nothing to do with the improved safety of football crowds. It's a longstanding (ho ho) confusion of correlation with causation.

    For evidence, there are no shortage of standing stadiums for other sports, football in other countries (e.g. Germany), live concerts...the list goes on.
    KelsoOrn and The Voice of Reason like this.
  18. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Logic would suggest that all-seater stadiums are safer when everybody sits, but more dangerous when everybody stands, as long as the numbers going into that stand are controlled.
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    That's the point. There's one seat per person. You cannot crowd a seated area. You would never get the swell of people congregated in the same area. It just doesn't happen. Seats makes a big difference to crowd congestion. It would be illogical to say otherwise.
  20. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Have you ever been in the 1881 bit of the Rookery?
  21. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    You really think you can't just let the same number of people in without seats being there? You really think you can't have assigned numbers in standing areas?

    Good grief. It's already being done elsewhere.
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  22. hornet93

    hornet93 Academy Graduate

  23. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    How many have been crushed to death in there? Wow, they kept that quiet.
  24. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Reservist

    The point is that clubs have virtually given up trying to enforce sitting down because it’s impossible without heavy policing. Even little Watford are implying we should now expect standing in the Rookery. Eventually there will be a combination of circumstances, probably not at Vicarage Road, when things get out of hand and some people will get hurt but not 96 deaths, thankfully.

    To take one example, anyone who was at the 5-0 game at Fulham in our promotion season will remember a great atmosphere but large numbers of fans were squashed in at the top of the stand, not in designated ‘seats’ and filling the stairways. The stewards that night gave up trying to sort it out and there was certainly the potential for a forward surge resulting in people falling.
  25. nascot

    nascot First Team

    Did you do Rotherham away a few years ago (Helguson, 1-0)? We had way more in the seats than should have been allowed. One example of many where I've been to games and there are more people than seats. Nothing to do with deaths, more your point that you cannot crowd a seated area. You can.
    UEA_Hornet likes this.
  26. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Sorry, where did you mention death in the bit I quoted?
  27. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    It’s generally quite quiet in there.
  28. Hornpete

    Hornpete Reservist

    Theres a noatalgic clamour for a return to terraces and the atmosphere they had, and they were great fun, being packed in celebrating a goal was like being at the front of a metallica concert, which is still allowed. You didnt bring a packed lunch or shopping bags with you as there wasnt space.

    However the modern implementation of safe standing is akin to going to watch a rock concert and being asked to stand in a specific square metre of space with barriers stopping you moving forward or back. And the concert is James Blunt.

    Its nothing I'd sign a petition for.
    Derbyhorn likes this.
  29. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    Bumpity Bump!

    Link here.
  30. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Standing is still better, isn’t it?

    Safe sitting is like a Blunt concert where the great man, before each song, says ‘And here’s a track from my new album’.

    (If terms like track & album are still used.)
  31. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    Could Hillsborough have happened in a seated stand? Yes.. if the crowd management had broken down as much as it did on that day. But.. seated areas were traditionally safer than terracing. Not just when it came to the large scale tragedies which lead to loss of life but on an everyday level, injuries in seated areas were significantly less than standing areas.
    This fact has often been overlooked in the clammer to re-introduce standing areas. Seats no different to standing used as an argument.. which i find detrimental to the discussion. With all things equal seating has traditionally been safer.

    Safe standing.. different story.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  32. Not at Bradford they weren't, nor at that other disaster area - Ibrox. Although, to be fair, the last disaster at Ibrox was more to do with egress - too many fans trying to leave early at the same time.
  33. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    Bradford happened cause the whole stand was a tinderbox. Locked exits and the speed the fire went at worsened the situation. You could argue that the seats burned but that's outside of the normal conversation re seats vs terracing.

    In normal usage old school terracing led to more injuries etc than seating areas.. but some people won't admit it.
  34. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    Man Utd fans stand at every away match, (as do most others to be fair), so it was fairly ironic when the stewards at Old Trafford started forcing people to sit down. Even at Wembley against Tottenham we stood all game without anyone even trying to get us to sit down. My point is that the authorities seem blind to the fact that away fans stand all the time now, so how can that possibly be safer than "safe standing".

    If anyone in "authority" had a brain, (they don't), then they'd trial safe standing for away supporters. However that's wayyyyy to much common sense for them to try.
  35. Stevohorn

    Stevohorn Watching Grass Grow

    Btw.. and for the record..
    Stairway 13 at Ibrox was the exit from the terracing not the stand.

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