Rotten Club

Having read that The Athletic article, it's clear that the club is utterly rotten.

Yet again, players have revolted to get rid of a coach that is seen as more of a disciplinarian, exactly the same as they did with Sannino and Mazzarri. But the problem is, they also let down nice guy coaches like Gracia, Quique and Zola as they take the piss.

Doucoure's interview a while back was enlightening. Gracia wasn't strong enough to keep the team focused after the success of getting to the cup final - no mention of them being profession footballers who maybe, just maybe, should've been focused as part of their job. And then Pearson had health issues and everyone was left to their own devices during lockdown and we weren't ready when football restarted.

The players can't be trusted to do things themselves but will undermine anyone that tries to impose a stricter regime. Whoever the source in the latest article (T.D?) was actually had the gall to moan about having to stay in hotels for an extra night when millions of people around the country are losing jobs, struggling to put food on the table or dealing with the health consequences of the pandemic. No matter how it's spun, it seems pretty clear that Ivic wanted to speak to Deeney who decided to make him wait so long Ivic left. Good on him for dropping him in the case. He was right when he said that no player should be bigger than the club but unfortunately this is Deeney FC.

The recruitment department is ****ed, having not really had a good window since 17/18, there's no point rehashing the Do you have Faith in Gino? Thread but suffice to say very few people do. Yet again, Gino despatches a lackey to go and try to interfere with the team tactics/selection at half time.

We have a looming financial meltdown, which will be exacerbated by not getting promoted this season, and underperforming players stuck on Premier League contracts that we can't shift. They screwed Ivic before he'd even started, no head coach has ever come into a situation where almost half the squad were coming into training with no intention of being part of the team. And again, much like Silva, they let him down on transfers, with the much vaunted scouting department unable to find a single left back that could be competent in the Championship.

Since the Pozzos took over, we've never been particularly liked by anyone outside the club but at least it felt like we knew the reality behind some of the lazy reporting. Well, now it's hard for even our own fans to like the club and the way it's run.

This appointment has to be the last chance saloon for Gino. **** this up with another cheap, inexperienced option and the 1881 need to be sewing a massive **** Off out of Our Club onto that embarrassing banner of Gino.

 

Don't worry, the Watford Supporters Trust have re-emerged and have put out a statement speaking of their concerns and asking other fans to get in touch for some reason.

The coup is on.

 

Excellent post. So just to clear, are you happy with how the club is being run?

 

Ivic lost, what 2 games in two seasons in Israel? Kept 13 clean sheets in a row? Won the league by over 30 points?

Putting aside his failings this season with us, the players have absolutely no right what so ever to question training methods and frequency. They’re paid to do what they’re told and that’s it. He knows more than them and has demonstrably been successful with his methods.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of it isn’t even to do with Ivic anyway, due to the ongoing global pandemic there is a condensed gruelling schedule, but if they don’t like that they can always resign and take up another career!

 

It's your fault.

 

Embarrassing. I actually like Troy but does he really think a tap in from 2 yards out where he's lucky it took a deflection keeping him onside and two penalties = "in form" and is really the same as scoring three games in a row, it's like scoring three penalties in a game and saying I scored a hat-trick I'm in form..

 

At the same time, they are professionals too, many of whom have been in their jobs for a decade or more, and who have trained under a lot of managers - some of them at or near the top of the game. If they believe, based on their prior experience, that the path they are going down is counter-productive, and they can feel the effect of that on their own bodies, perhaps, then why would they not say something about it? Especially in this condensed season with a uniquely crammed fixture list. If they didn't do so and just went on to complain after, there would be enough people criticising them for being cowardly and not taking responsibility.

A team needs to run in harmony as a unit, and that would ideally include a degree of shared agency and feedback from both sides in pursuit of success/a winning formula. When it leads to recriminations and punishment, particularly for fairly innocuous-seeming incidents like this, then it is already fairly untenable, and that's not really at the feet of the playing squad.

 

So the players have got rid of Ivic. The way he was trying to get us to play I don't blame them. Horrible tactics which has completely nullified our attacking threat.
The players now are far different from when Zola was here. Let's not pretend that Zola's season was a coaches masterclass, he has never done well as a coach apart from that one season. The players played the way QSF wanted. If anybody hounded him out it was the fans but as that is unlikely maybe it's because he couldn't change his views on how to play.
Maybe Gracia wasn't strong enough but that's life and that's why he left. Player power happens at every single club, very few managers can sort it completely.
Sannino was out of his depth. The only one I struggle with was Mazarri who it looked like had all the right qualities although the fact he refused to learn English didn't help.
Not sure how Pearson being unwell is anybody's fault.
What is the point in staying in a hotel after a game at Wycombe. Why shouldn't they be allowed to go home to their families. I've seen Deeney being made the scapegoat again for all of this but I've seen somebody suggest that in fact he is not the main man in all of this. If he had a falling out with Ivic and that Ivic wouldn't use him why the hell was he on the bench, that's not the clubs fault, that's the coach being an idiot
I might have missed something but when you say, Yet again, Gino despatches a lackey to go and try to interfere with the team tactics/selection at half time., what does this infer to?
Like any club that gets relegated, there are financial issues but maybe not buying a left back or other players is trying to stop this meltdown from happening? Silva was just a little baby so not sure using him any argument is valid
I do worry where we are heading but all I want is to enjoy watching football again so hopefully a new manager can do that

 

But it’s not the first time with this group of players, or with this club. Most players don’t become mangers, and those that do rarely become particularly great managers. So in most cases players won’t actually know what’s best. We have a number of players who consistently don’t apply themselves in games, so why would that be any different with training?

If it was the first we’d heard if it, then that would be one thing, but it’s not. It seems to me we have a group of players who are just lazy, they don’t like to be pushed too hard, and when they are they moan about it.

One of the first things Troy said about Ivic when he came in was something along the lines of ‘Well the lads aren’t moaning about his training sessions yet which is good”. Hugely telling about the mindset of our average player.

 

Sums the guy up

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not praising the attitudes of our players of our dressing room or squad or whatever else - it's very clear, has been for some time, and we all know the issues there. But I can't get on board with the idea that the players are automatons who are solely there to put up or shut up and nothing else. They have a role to play in responsive feedback, and in a well-oiled/working scenario it wouldn't be a problem but a strength.

When you give your managers analysis, also: the two managers considered to be the greatest in the world at this moment are both ex-professionals who had long and, in the case of one, incredibly storied careers at the highest level, so it's hardly an impediment either.

We can't ignore any aspect of the context of this season, and the schedule is one of them. How many times have the team come out sluggish, slow and looking under-prepared. That could be, and probably was, contributed to by issues with attitude. But it could also very well have been contributed to by fatigue from lack of appropriate rest and too many conditioning sessions.

 

Quique let Deeney skip training and was reportedly sacked as training ground discipline had gone.

Pearson was unwell but there was a vacuum in the club. No-one else, players or coaches thought it necessary to maintain any unity. Doucoure said they were allowed to do whatever they wanted during lockdown and there was no attempt to keep them together as a group.

The point of staying in a hotel was apparently to do the warm down sessions the next day. It is not a massive imposition in a very high paid job.

The Athletic article says Gino sent people down from the Directors' Box to find out from Ivic's staff what changes he was going to make.

Of course there are financial issues, Deeney and Gray's contracts and inability to shift them being the main two, I'd guess. We didn't need to spend big on a left back, could've sourced one on loan or free.

And the players change, yes. But there's one player who's been a constant throughout and he's the biggest personality at the club. He fell out with Mazzarri and Ivic, he called Jokanovic a clown in an interview. He was allowed to miss training by Quique, he was played on one leg by Pearson, he was allowed to take media commitments whilst still playing, he's openly admitted coming back out of shape in pre season multiple times, he also has to be a starter despite his declining ability that means he has contributed next to nothing in open play for about three seasons, he gave an interview 30 seconds after his relegation how he set out that he wanted to leave, he gave another interview in the summer saying he was a Premier League player and slagging off other professionals, he was pissed off when Vydra was named Championship POTS as he was the "main man", he has repeatedly lied about the court case when he went to prison putting a spin on it that is completely at odds with the judge's comments. Name another club where one player wields such influence and gets such preferential treatment.

 

I posted similar in the thread for articles on The Athletic, but I think it’s worth repeating the understanding that certain portions of the dressing room are unhappy with the lack of effort others are putting in. This is massive, and a damning indictment of the mentality within the dressing room.

Based on yesterday, I wouldn’t bet against Cleverley being one of the main players upset, given that he never fails to run his heart out. Wilmot also played yesterday like a player with something to prove, while the likes of Capoue sauntered around offering nothing. Yesterday was a far cry from the early performances this season, that while lacking fluidity, showed no lack of organization or effort.

Nothing will change until those who are not willing to put forth the effort required are removed, and we have a squad moving in the same direction. I’m not sure it matters who we hire to coach this squad until the toxic elements are taken out of the equation.

 

They might as well go the whole hog and appoint him manager. We can then get a mobile striker on the pitch and Troy can simply sit in the dug out shouting orders in between stuffing endless pies.

 

Drain the swamp

 

I think you are making a number of leaps here.

For a start the players were not unmanaged during lockdown. Pearson had a highly paid coaching team and there is absolutely no reason why they could not have kept track of the players' condition during that time. If some players took their eye off the ball at that point it was because they were allowed to. More simply, we let go a good position to escape because key players, Deeney, Deulofeu and (right at the end) Capoue were under par or unavailable. The coach had few new ideas after this and seems to have lost the plot.

We may well have a few unprofessional players, but when you consider who they may be and how long the malaise they are supposed to have created has lasted, quite a few are ruled out. I doubt our goalkeepers or most or our defenders are unprofessional. I think Capoue could be moody, but he has also run further than anyone else over the last five years. Maybe Sarr is, but he has always appeared to want to succeed, upset when we didn't, even if he has retreated under Ivic. That leaves Deeney and Gray in particular. We know Gray is and I expect his lack of goals and contribution would demotivate colleagues given his salary and attitude. Deeney for sure has a head way too big, but even the Athletic article doesn't conclusively lay it at his door.

It's odd that when many posters have been calling for Ivic and his negative football to go that they are then outraged when he does. Fact is we had seen enough and it was getting hard to see how a good and successful style of football was going to develop. Most of us were expecting us to fall out of contention soon. Those were the signs. The hierarchy are responsible for some poor recruitment of both players and managers, getting the wrong coach for the job once more or at least a coach who sought to do a job they didn't want. But 'rotten'? Struggling and failing cover it well enough.

 

I suggest you listen to the Doucouré interview where he says they were left completely to their own devices and he'd spoken to people at other clubs who were all doing joint work outs and keeping the team spirit going. He said he was shocked by it and everyone just wanted the season to end and we weren't ready for the resumption. I'd say he knows more about it than you or I...

 

The players were right on this occasion. The guy was utterly hopeless. My only criticism is that they didn't force him out weeks ago.

 

This a good post. This club like many has had many lazy players and players who had a bad attitude. That's fine - you can't have a team of perfect players. We've got worse attitudes than Deeney.
Our problem is Deeney is our captain and doesn't rally the players, hold them accountable in any way, or demand any effort or discipline from the so when they don't like the manager Deeney thinks his job is the players union rep and spokesperson. Apparently he's very good at it.

 

Which players would you suggest have worse attitudes than Deeney? Genuine question

 

Pozzo has absolutely lost the plot. I don't give a **** what he's done in the past, it's completely irrelevant now.

Under this ownership we are going to end up worse off than we were before he arrived. Major trouble on the horizon.

 

I’m not sure you’ve seen Deeney play if that’s your opinion. He certainly does try and rally the troops and demands effort. He probably doesn’t do enough on the pitch sometimes but as the captain it’s quite right he is the spokesperson

 

Here is a conundrum. If Deeney has so much influence with the Pozzos then
it does seem strange that every time a manager gets the tin tak he is generally
replaced with another "who are you ?" . Surely he would be bending Ginos ears
and saying that we need a boss the players respect and have heard of ?.
This said I am not a Deeney apologist

 

Sure and that’s then a management failing first and foremost. WTF was Craig Shakespeare doing? What were Gino or Scott doing for that matter? There are very few of us in our teens and twenties who would simply work diligently when left unsupervised for a couple of months. That’s not to say players necessarily did do a bad job, but keeping the super fitness required in the Prem - almost impossible on your own.

Fact is without Deulofeu we were awful. The players we could bring in, like Pussetto, way short of the task. Hardly need to look further than our players’ limitations for relegation.

 

May have done this with Pearson...... think it was well known that the Brits in the squad thought it was time for British manager

 

Gray.

 

Is that us? I've had a few beers and cant remember if we discussed 'action.'

 

I DON'T like Troy. He comes across as very arrogant and you show why. He can be utter **** for months and come out with comments about how fans or critics are all stupid and don't understand the game, but tuck in a couple of penalties that he didn't win and he thinks he's smashing it.

He hasn't offered us anything worth his status or wages for 3 seasons now.

 

Watford Supporters Trust....I remember them, Hertfordshire’s Home Guard will sort it all out.