Reids Coaching/Management thread

Discussion in 'General Football & Other Sport' started by reids, Aug 11, 2015.

  1. reids

    reids First Team

    Sadly not, it's obvious that they've certainly been preparing and putting a bit more focus on set-pieces though..makes you think - where would we be in the table if this was done from the start?
     
  2. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Did anything come of the possible work at Brighton?
     
  3. reids

    reids First Team

    Doing an analysis for them for their Newcastle game but pretty sure they won't use it since the analyst I spoke to is pretty much their set-piece analyst + coach combined. Instead they said they might want to commission me for some research projects
     
  4. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    We have been aiming for Dawson all season when he has played.

    Just came off last night at last.
     
  5. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Fantastic stuff. Congratulations!
     
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  6. reids

    reids First Team

    Must be desperation season in the Championship - wait all season for a job in the Championship and 2 come along at once - having to turn clubs down now! :oops:
     
  7. reids

    reids First Team

    So...a dilemma has appeared. The freelance stuff seems to be going really well - a verbal contract agreed with a Championship and a League 1 team. A league 2 team, an MLS team and an Eredivisie side are all impressed and currently deciding on whether to also sign up with me.

    However, yesterday Brentford advertised a full-time role (https://thevideoanalyst.com/job/bre...g-ground-222-assistant-performance-analyst-2/) that I'd be very qualified for.

    The role reports to the Head of Set-Pieces, who I met at a coaching conference earlier in the year and showed him some of the tools I've built, I also had a Zoom meeting with him over the lockdown period where I demonstrated my corner database - his feedback was incredibly complimentary "you have blown my mind, this is something you should be very proud of, I've never seen anything like this or even thought about the concept"

    I've told the Head of Set-Pieces that I've applied (he replied and said "Good idea, did you mention you'd met me?") but now I've got a dilemma - if I happen to get the job....do I take it?

    Having a full-time role at a club has always been the end goal...but the money won't be great (since it's an assistant analyst - I reckon pay will be around £20k tops). But then if I work freelance and it proves to be a huge success for the teams I'm working with then that gives me leverage to charge more in the future, potentially earning much more than the standard analyst rate within football.

    There's not many better clubs to work for in the field of set-pieces as part of Brentfords philosophy focuses on that heavily - and could be a great launchpad to further roles (the old set-piece coach is now at Man City, one of the previous analysts is now at Tottenham) and working for a club would be ideal for the CV since when I had the interview with Man City this time last year not having worked full-time with a club was what let me down. But again - if I do well freelance then it's likely i'll have established myself as an expert in the field potentially leading to better roles...

    Flexibility is also up for debate - it'll be an hour commute (with the cost that comes with it) vs working from home, football jobs tend to have long hours but obviously WFH I can essentially pick my own hours.

    Job security is also another - with 2 clubs I can currently keep my full-time job and do the football work on the side which is a nice little earner - but with 4/5 teams I'll have to quit my job and go full-time into football. Each contract with the club is rolling monthly (except the Championship one which is for the season) so if the freelance stuff doesn't go well and clubs start to cancel, then I'm screwed, however this is less likely with Brentford as it's a full-time role. I'd also feel a bit of a **** reneging on the verbal contracts that I've agreed to.

    I'm totally torn, huge pros on both sides - any advice gratefully received!
     
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  8. ForzaWatford

    ForzaWatford Squad Player

    Sounds great Reids.

    I work at a football club and to be honest I don't love it. I work in marketing so I guess it's very different, but I don't really enjoy being tied to one club. I've found as well I get to watch Watford a lot less, but I guess that is always going to happen. Feel free to PM me if you want to ask any questions about working at a club, although I have never met or spoken to most the training ground staff, except for the at the staff football after work, so might not be much help!
     
  9. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Tough call and very difficult for anyone on here to advise you. I'd suggest making sure you objectively weight up all the factors, pros and cons, have them absolutely clear in your mind. Then go with what your heart tells you and back yourself in making that decision. You won't know if it's the right decision at the time, and it may even turn out to be the wrong choice, but you'll be sure you considered all the factors at play here and made the best decision with the full facts as you knew them to hand. Bear in mind what you're currently earning in your full time role, what the prospects are at work, how easy it would be to go back to the same or similar in a year if it didn't work out. These are all factors that none of us on the forum really know but you'll have a gut feel.
     
  10. K9 Hornet

    K9 Hornet Border Collie Dog

    It's really hard to offer any advice Reids, given this is such a niche area outside most people's experience and is something you're driven to do rather than just a job to pay the bills. I know verbal offers and other interest doesn't amount to hard contracts yet, but if you did get freelance clients from Europe, the US as well as the UK then as you say, your reputation might well flourish and other offers come in. With the Brentford role, I don't know how the contract will look but you might want to check that if you have developed tools/databases yourself or are working on new ones that give a competitive advantage, that they don't become the intellectual property of the club (might just be being paranoid here!). Good luck whatever you decide to do...
     
  11. Diamond

    Diamond First Team

    Firstly, fantastic achievements Reids, you've done very well. As to your question, I'd ask myself how far I've come in the last year and use that as a probable measure regarding how well the next year is likely to grow the business against being stuck in a full time role, the only advantage being it's "good for the CV".
     
  12. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    Good luck Reids with whatever you decide.

    We all know football is volatile business to be involved in, so maybe remaining freelance might be the best option for you right now. Then once you have gained the reputation for being the man to go to, you will be able to name your price if a club offers you a full time job in order to have exclusive access to you.
     
  13. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    @reids in 'my world' CRA (Clinical Research Associate, it's just a fancy title for data collation and analysis) with demonstrable experience basically name their own salaries (£50k+ it's not just the fairly specialist skill set but is the proven experience and you work exclusively for the drug company) so I'm basing my arguments on that.

    Surely your argument is for the "...what sort of compensation package you require..." stage of interview. You can ask for something 'reasonable' (FFS not £20K!) to show you're serious and that state that buys 'exclusivity' as presumably there will be a NDA and you won't be able to freelance.

    Also you state that you've 'invented' your own methods - they're may be significant IP issues - when they 'buy' you do they 'own' your IP especially with something esoteric as a new analytical data method? In fact, anything concerning IP is a minefield and you really should concerning specialist professional advice (be warned they're expensive, not lawyer expensive but another level above that).

    EDIT: Great news, well done.
     
  14. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Great position to be in @reids. I echo most of the above folk who point out it's a highly personal choice. And a nice problem to have.

    I think if it was me I'd give freelance a whirl for a season, on the assumption there will (probably) always be salaried jobs about to look at if that doesn't work out. You seem to have plenty of irons in the fire for the upcoming season. Brentford sounds like a great launch pad though so if you went for that and got it sounds like there's still loads of scope to progress.

    My only question would be if you took your unique analysis tool with you to aid work at Brentford could they in any way assume ownership of it? If you went there and wanted to move on later you'd want to be sure you could take your USP and IP with you.
     
  15. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Very good points being made by BHW and K9 re your self-developed tools. Firstly you want to avoid the risk that they may own those tools if they employ you and you may not be able to use them if you leave. Secondly, even if they don't own the tools, they may have copies and be able to use them after you've left and individuals may export them to other teams as they move. If they are genuinely unique to you, and give you a competitive advantage, you need to find a way to legally secure them if you feel they are sufficiently important to you....
     
  16. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Congrats on how far you've come already Reids. FT jobs in football are very difficult to find, and it sounds like you'd be very qualified for this role. It sounds like either option is a good choice.

    The questions I'd try to answer is how favourably the bigger clubs will look upon you getting a full time role at a club (seems like very favourably in the Man City case)/ and how important contacts are in football. I can't really answer that, but it might be worth looking for any equivalent historic job adverts and looking at essential criteria to check whether you'd be eligible as is (if this is not available, are there any sports recruitment firms who you could ask?)

    Do you know anyone who has got a top job in football going completely freelance? What's the difference in salary between a successful freelancer, and an analyst at Man City?

    If you feel your software has a competitive advantage against what else is out there, I'd definitely stay freelance. If the end goal is freelance, I'd build up a few contacts first, see how it goes, then use that experience in a full time role later on if you later decide going it alone isn't the best thing long term.
     
  17. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    Well done Reids, I would suggest you would feel bored, under valued earning a low salary at Brentford under their control, when you have the tools available to earn considerably more under your own terms by staying freelance! A head of job would be your aim at a proper salary, by working free lance and producing results getting your name out there more, offers could well come from higher paying clubs!

    Good luck with your decision!
     
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  18. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Not sure anybody can make this decision for you but Brentford sounds like an excellent stepping stone and is apparently a very well run club. Do you desperately need the money? I once was a coach at Watford but the money was not great so I stopped and went in to Logistics which I’ve regretted ever since so if it was me and money isn’t a big issue currently I would edge towards the Brentford job. If the guy there likes you so much you may well be able to talk about the salary.
    Congratulations so far
     
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  19. reids

    reids First Team

    Ah I've always wanted the opposite! Mostly as I think it'll be more effective and can have a bit more of a say in the decision making process rather than just emailing off a report and then waiting to see the video back to see if what I recommended ended up getting used!

    Definitely, I keep flip-flopping in my head at present, hopefully by the time the interviews come around (assuming i've got one!) it'll be a bit clearer!

    That's a great point RE: the databases etc - that will of course be a non-negotiable on my part that I get to keep control of those - currently how it works when I'm freelance is I sell the insights from my database without anyone ever really seeing it (other than when I demo it in my initial pitch to the club!), I will be suggesting the same here if necessary.

    It's a difficult one - obviously the aim is to end up a top club and as i've found out - not having that experience of being in and around a club environment and "how things work" has gone against me in the past. But alternatively I now have much more experience and have developed more research/tools to perhaps swing that in my favour if another role of that sort came up at a top club. Also working with potentially 5 different teams this season would give me a huge amount of experience and hopefully a great track record to back that up. Pros/cons on both sides again!


    Definitely - that's pretty much the main pro of going freelance, I spoke with the technical director of a team in the MLS the other day who said they spoke with the Liverpool throw-in coach about doing some work for them and he quoted them a price that was more than their assistant manager earns! Yet I know he's definitely getting business from top clubs around the world so it's definitely possible.


    It's funny, even though it's a niche area, clubs still don't want to pay a premium as there will still be someone who will take the poor pay, even if they're worse at the job. The set-piece analyst role I went for at Man City last year paid 18k! I haven't really invented my own methods, I've essentially just carried out a research project that has seemingly (taking this from the feedback i've had from the many clubs I've spoken to over the last few months!) never been done before that provides insights how to approach attacking each opponents defensive set-up. I'd imagine/hope that since I carried this out before (potentially) being employed by them that I would have ownership over this, but I would definitely look to clarify this with them beforehand and get it in writing as well!


    Definitely a good dilemma to have! Luckily my analysis tool is just a website link that can be changed at any time, however I would ensure that this would be mine - and get it in writing that it's mine and that nobody else can use it.
     
  20. reids

    reids First Team

    Definitely - as I've replied to other people, I'd like to ensure and get it writing that I'd be the only person to use it and they have no ownership over it.

    It's an odd one, as it's such a niche role there isn't a lot of historical adverts to compare it against. The Man City one last year is the only one I've seen (other than this same Brentford role that was advertised a couple of years ago) in the 4 years I've been focusing on set-pieces - and the Man City role only paid 18k! As for football freelance - the Liverpool throw-in coach is working with Liverpool whilst also retaining freelance status (he's also now working with Ajax + a Bundesliga club and I'd imagine a couple of others). From a conversation I had with the technical director of a MLS team the other day he's doing very well off it (he said the quote was more than what they were paying their assistant manager) which compared to the 18k that City were offering for a set-piece analyst is quite the difference.


    Thanks, useful advice and insight!

    I'm not desperate for the money, my fiancee has a very well paid job and owns our flat where I contribute to bills/mortgage and I'd be able to continue to do that comfortably on a smaller salary, however we are currently planning a wedding and are likely to move in the next 3/4 years so the extra money would of course be nice! Brentfords reputation is a big plus, set-pieces are a huge part of their identity and any manager they hire has to value set-pieces so there's a good element of security in there to ensure a scenario like what we experienced with Watford this season can occur.

    Thanks all for the feedback and input!
     
  21. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    I'd just see what Brentford offer and then work from there. They might make an offer that surprises you and changes things. A 1 hour commute is killer, though; that grinds you down before too long.

    Probably worth mentioning that you can leverage your existing freelance work to potentially push an offer up, too. If they want you, they need to make it worth your while.

    Goes without saying that if you get established as a freelancer, you'll make more money. It's also riskier, but if your fiance has that side covered then you've already removed most of the risk.

    I will say that, regardless of my future personal ambitions, there's no way I'd work a 20k a year job with a 1 hour commute....especially in an industry where other club staff are earning literally five figures a week. That honestly feels like someone is taking the piss.
     
  22. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    To be transparent I should add I'm also being interviewed for the Brentford job and plan to use many of your ideas and diagrams copied from your posts on here. My plan for corners will be to get everyone to run around a lot and then get the ball on the head of our tallest central half (or "CH" as we call them in the trade). No cheating and using that idea please.
     
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  23. reids

    reids First Team

    As much as I agree, that's sadly football in a nutshell - the players earn hundreds of thousands whilst everyone else at the club earns a pittance. That's another reason why I chose to specialise in set-pieces as my work is quantifiable, I can go to a team and tell them that I can get them 5-10 extra goals a season from my work, which is hard for a "normal" analyst to do and gives me extra value - clubs would be throwing tens of thousands a week at a player who could do that - and whilst obviously I will never be earning as much as a player it would certainly ensure I get paid more than other analyst roles.
     
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  24. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    It sounds like if your ultimate aim is a job with a big club, the Brentford role would probably help you get there faster.... but weirdly it would be a step back in terms of what you actually do day to day, as well as pay. If you want a job at a big club it might mean eating **** at Brentford (in comparison to what you do on a freelance basis that is) is the way forward, but if your ultimate aim is not a job at a big club then it doesn’t really sound like there is much benefit to you. The way I try to look at these things is what am I likely to regret? If you don’t take the Brentford job would that leave you with any potential regrets? If you take the Brentford job what could you be left regretting by comparison.
     
  25. Teide1

    Teide1 Squad Player

    Just a thought, if you were to be offered the Brentford job, how about negotiating to do it part time at say 30k Pre-rata, two days one week 3 the other (cuts down the travelling) and then with your other 2 / 3 days per week working freelance for your other clients! Best of both worlds, I actually worked in Brentford for 16 years in the 80/90s it was quite a nightmare getting there then, however could be easier now in the post Covid days as more people will probably be working from home!
     
  26. Bwood_Horn

    Bwood_Horn Squad Player

    And there we have it in a nutshell. You have created IP. Valuable IP. In the short-term photocopy everything you have that details why and how you do what you do with some examples (CD ROM/DVD ROM of data) - put it in envelope and send it by Royal Mail to yourself. This provides some 'proof' that you were the one who thought of doing it 'this way' before the date that's on the postmark.

    The next step is serious IP advice for protecting any value in your IP. It won't be cheap, but I would strongly advise you to contact professional Patent/IP Attorney. There are a couple in Watford.

    You're going to be on a steep learning curve finding out what the actual meaning of 'a knowledge based economy' means.
     
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  27. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    I would like to join other people on this forum in congratulating you, Reids, on your prospective job offers. It is difficult to break into professional football.

    You are the only person in a position to decide which is the best path forward. I agree with a19tgg that you need to clarify your priorities. Do you want to work freelance for various clubs or do you hope to work as a set piece analyst for one club? The first option will give you more flexibility in the future and you may be able to make a name for yourself through working with various clubs. However, it would make sense to take the job offer at Brentford (assuming that possibility develops into a definite job offer) if you prefer the second option, but you clearly need to keep ownership of the analytical tools which you have developed. I do not know whether you gained any benefit from working unpaid for Millwall, but in many professions getting on the job ladder is the hardest first step and then future job opportunities become easier to find once you are established on the circuit.

    It was disappointing that Watford did not take advantage of your offer to analyze their set pieces. I hope that their lack of interest does not come back to haunt them in the future.
     
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  28. hornetfan

    hornetfan Academy Graduate

    There was an interesting article in the Athletic, which seems to have some relevance to your situation, Reids. I do not know whether you subscribe to the Athletic, but I have attached a small part of the article:

    "From, in his own words, “venting about Sheffield United on Twitter” to being part of a League One club’s recruitment operation just eight or so months later.

    Quite the remarkable journey for Jay Socik, one of the pioneers behind the “fanalytics” movement and now partner in a company providing specialist scouting services for several clubs, including Swansea City and US second-tier side Tampa Bay Rowdies.

    “It has been way beyond what I could have dreamed about,” the 30-year-old tells The Athletic. “As a kid, you obviously grow up wanting to be a footballer. Then, when I went to university, it was all about wanting to be a coach or analyst.

    “Three years ago, I did feel that opportunity of working in football had gone. I had my day job but was not doing anything in football. I was just tweeting as a fan — an ordinary bloke.

    “So, to go from having literally no followers on Twitter to, first, getting involved at Peterborough United with Darragh (MacAnthony, the club’s owner) and now working with all these great clubs is crazy.”

    Socik is one of six partners in MRKT Insights, a company set up last year whose data-driven analysis has already been tapped into by clubs looking to unearth hidden gems in the transfer market by using their insight in both recruitment and performance analysis."
     
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  29. reids

    reids First Team

    Funnily enough I work with MRKT Insights (https://twitter.com/insightMrkt/status/1281149490880303104) - they've landed me the Championship job (and hopefully a League 2 job as well) haha
     
  30. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Best of luck with your choices @reids. It sounds like you have incredible opportunities whichever path you take and reading from a distance how you've built your modelling up I can only believe more doors opening up for you sooner rather than later. Not only is your work impressive but the manner you put it across is too. The success coming your way is fully deserved. Great stuff.
     
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  31. reids

    reids First Team

    Over 450 applicants for the Brentford job apparently :eek:

    Also one of the clubs I was lining up have made me a ludicrously bad offer - they pay me for the first month (September) then if by the end of December the team has 3 corner goals they'll pay me my fee for the outstanding 3 months. Get ****ed.

    Not a good day today!
     
  32. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    My, how generous of them. Is there a precedent for that sort of thing in the football industry or are they just taking the mick completely?
     
  33. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Watford FC the only club where getting the "basics" right is considered an afterthought.
     
  34. folkestone orn

    folkestone orn Squad Player

    Laughable. How much would a player be on for scoring 3 goals?
     
  35. reids

    reids First Team

    Pretty sure they're just the taking the mick - they've just signed someone who's won the CL and came 4th in the Ballon d'Or not that long ago either so not as they're hard up (well actually they might be after paying his wages)

    Definitely more than the measly €500 a month I'm charging! Thinking of reversing it on them and reducing my flat fee by a good chunk but introducing a hefty goal bonus instead - that way if things go well i'll be earning more than my monthly fee although pretty sure that'll be a first for an analyst role.
     
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