Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I can’t see that working. There would be confusion over offside. One might flag and the other did not. Who do you believe? It would confuse fans and I think would cause a lot of issues.
  2. You'd believe the one who saw the offside. It would lead to more incorrect offsides being flagged, but fewer correct ones being missed. Whiich would massively help us this season at least.
  3. Since63

    Since63 Reservist

    And I think that's the crux of it. Too many refs see it as a "career" where they have to "maximise their exposure" to ensure they "get to the top". GT complained the first time we got into the Prem that too many refs were too friendly with the big-team players...calling Ar5e players by their first names & WFC players by their shirt soon as that situation developed the potential for unintentional bias increased dramatically.
    His other complaint was that since the last time we were in the top flight, the attitudes of certain refs seemed to have changed from "let me try to keep all 22 players on the pitch" to "oooh, look, maybe I can send him off for that...". I think this aspect has become even worse & this is where we are falling foul of the red cards...we do not realise that so many refs are literally itching to make a "big call" that we hand them the opportunity on a plate.
    folkestone orn likes this.
  4. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    But the fact one is flagging and the other is not is going to lead to confusion and doubt in the referee’s mind. Maybe the guy that keeps his flag down is actually correct.

    I just don’t see how it could work. It will create more uncertainty which is the exact opposite to what we are looking to achieve.
  5. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    True. Just a 5th match official then. Start with two appeals per team, which only the captain can call. The 5th official has one minute (maybe two?) to make a decision based on video. If the appeal is upheld, the captain retains that appeal to use again, otherwise they lose it and have only one left. It might discourage appealing to the ref for everything all the time as they do now. Could also be used if time wasting tactics are employed - the 5th official times Ben Foster (et al) to see if they go over the 8 seconds on a regular basis - also discourages tw@ts in the crowd from counting out loudly ;)

  6. LPC213

    LPC213 Reservist

    Lino flags offside and play continues. If the ball naturally goes out for a throw in or goal kick or the goalie catches the ball then the offside is upheld, no replay.

    If the attack continues and there's a goal, the linesman's flag forces a replay.

    If the attack continues for a corner then the attacking captain or manager has a chance to appeal the offside and keep the corner, if they truly believe it.

    Doesn't slow the game down unless absolutely necessary.

    If the flag doesn't go up, and a goal (or other credible advantage) is achieved, the defending manager can appeal.

    Doesn't slow the game down unless absolutely necessary.

    Three appeals per game, correctly appealing a decision doesn't incur a penalty.

    As long as the time appealing a decision is recorded I can't see many issues other than momentum, but then piss taking subs and goal kicks happen already.
  7. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Momentum is huge in a free flowing game like football. If a team countered, passed the ball around the oppositions box for two minutes, and then scored, are you still going to cancel out the goal? How far back do you go?

    I think they are looking at it the wrong way around. Put impact technology in shin pads, boots and balls, so that the fourth official can instantly tell which has been touched first. Potentially even the force of contact. A monitor will indicate to an extra official instantly what was touched first. The ref will adjudge if the level of contact was enough to bring the player down. Decisions should be made within 5 seconds. Refs mics should be open for all to hear.

    After the game, technology should scan for suspected divers and be put on a list, to be reviewed by body language experts. Anyone found going down without enough force should be banned, with exponentially increased punishments - no more of this 'if touched, you have a right to go down' nonsense.

    Technology might be expensive to set up - although they use equivalent tech in serious paintball games/ rugby tackling training so I'm not sure how expensive it will be - but will give a range of benefits far outweighing video decisions with appeal processes. That will simply encourage managers to appeal obviously right decisions, to waste time/ as a hail Mary towards the end of the game.
    LPC213 likes this.
  8. LPC213

    LPC213 Reservist

    Of course, momentum is a big part of the game. Our officials get the majority - and let's face it, it is a majority - of the "second phase of play" offside rule correct so I'm sure they can cope with a reasonable understanding of whether to pull the game back - it's about having that ability. In the example you give then yeah, sure, let's bring it back if the opposition manager wishes to have it reviewed. Now, obviously a goal in a most games is going to be appealed regardless of the circumstance, unless that team has no more appeals left so we can maybe take your example further and say that the appeal has to be lodged within 15 seconds of the "foul" occurring.

    I guess having thought about what I said a bit more, I'm also saying let's give the officials the tools to say, "I'm playing on unless I deem it unsafe to do so, I can review that foul later". You may even find that play is stopped less often than it is now.

    I'd hazard a guess that the instances for reviewing a controversial goal would happen less often than most fans expect.

    Besides, the discussion partly about the fact that the team that is wronged often gains none of the benefit during that match. No amount of body language experts are going to change that, especially when different players will have different resistances to certain forces applied to certain areas of their body from certain directions. I'm not even sure you'd be able to get a definitive data set to actually compare it to!
  9. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    On a slightly different note Michael Oliver explained to Deeney why he was sent off so it was know in public ...meaning some could understand the view of the ref.

    Should they be allowed to come out and explain themselves more often ?
  10. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    So Oliver got the decision right on Saturday? Who'd have thought?
  11. Paulubana

    Paulubana Academy Graduate

    If VAR were to be introduced, why does it even have to be prominent?

    Surely a fifth official sitting in an office, miked up to the referee, could review contentious descisions in real time and advise the on field official of his opinion. For both the first Huddersfield goal and the Deeney sending off, play had stopped anyway. The fifth official can watch it several times in less than a minute and advise the ref.

    Graham Taylor did not like the use of red and yellow cards, as he felt the ref could quickly take out a card while running toward the incident without considering the decision fully, as Oliver did with Deeney on Saturday. The VAR official would act like this thinking time delaying the reactionary and often incorrect card.

    I fear that using VAR in a public form, with say three challenges per half, would slow the game down and would be used by the TV companies as a gimmick for armchair viewers.

    Things need to change as referees are either not to the standard, unconsciously biased or egotistical and too many decisions are now shown to be wrong.
  12. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Good post and I agree with most of it. I would only comment that VAR would not have saved Deeney from seeing red. The closest example I can think of is in cricket. If an umpire gives LBW and it is reviewed, the VAR has to be conclusive to be overruled. If there is any doubt then the decision stays with the umpires call.

    Many referees would not have sent off Deeney, but some would. So it’s one of those decisions that could go either way in real time but is difficult to overrule once given.

    Had Deeney been shown a yellow he would not have faced a retrospective 4 match ban.

    VAR can only really be 100% successful in cases of fact, such as the first Huddersfield goal. In other instances it can only be used as an extra tool to aid the officials, to give them another look, but interpretation is impossible to quantify. One referee says “yes” and another says “no” for the same incident.
  13. The PozzMan

    The PozzMan Squad Player

    They have ear piece communication, and work together in teams. Sure there may be a few problems in starting up, but long term it’d be better. It’s not like all offsides happen middle of the pitch, in a lot of cases the linos behind the play and racing to catch up with where it would be, and sometimes as far as the other side of the pitch, it’s really not that complicated.
  14. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I can see some merit to having 4 linesmen. My only concern would be the potential conflict over offside, where one flags and the other does not.
  15. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Check your maths mate.
  16. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Linesmen (or assistant referees) actually doing their job would help.

    How often does a ref make a call from the wrong side of a tackle when the linesman is far closer and better positioned, but does nothing to advise his colleague? Linesfolk need to step up.
  17. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    My post has been upheld by an independent panel of 3 former mathematicians. Sorry.
  18. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I don't want to talk about the mathematicians in this moment
  19. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Unfortunately VAR cannot sort out all crucial offside decisions. Gabbiadini had a goal incorrectly ruled out in last season's League Cup final against Man U and as we know Huddersfield had an offside goal incorrectly allowed at the weekend. Both of these would have been corrected by VAR but only because play had been stopped by the ball going in the net. Consider this: Andre Gray is played clean through on goal by a defence-splitting pass from Pereyra. The linesman's flag goes up for offside, stopping play, but the VAR shows it to be an incorrect decision. There is no way the situation can be reconstructed to allow Gray the shot at goal. So under VAR, following an incorrect offside call, only some can be rectified which is unsatisfactory.
  20. wfcSinatra

    wfcSinatra Predictor Choker 14/15

    He's miss anyway.
  21. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Yep, and meanwhile gabbiadini of course scored.
  22. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

  23. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    And all footballers are honest and act with integrity at all times?

    Particularly Arsenal ones!

    Mind you it was a disgraceful decision - bit like a few of his own teams performance in recent weeks/season.
  24. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    He's already been done for it. It's why he's been on a 3 match touchline ban.
  25. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    WFC > Soton.
  26. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    It’s the good ones?!
  27. Smudger

    Smudger Messi's Mad Coach Staff Member

  28. Shakespearo

    Shakespearo Reservist

  29. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Shakespearo likes this.

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