Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    Could you explain this in a bit more detail.
  2. Luther Bassett

    Luther Bassett Reservist

    wfc4ever likes this.
  3. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    But if we were to limit the amount of appeals, what then if a team is wrongly judged against in a game but they have no appeals left?

    The problem with technology in the game, is that it won’t stop. It would be introduced just for offsides. Then fouls would be added to its on and so forth until it completely sucks the fun out of a game and you may as well sit at home and play FIFA on your games console. From what I can see, VAR will create just as many problems as it solves, if not more in the long run.
  4. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Exactly right. Keep the sport as simple as possible. It's not like bad decisions are destroying the game.
  5. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Take a look at the replays yourself.

  6. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    You said stuff on replays from multiple angles in slow motion can look very different from the event itself. Well obviously it will look different from one angle, one viewing only and in real time,, sorry, still can't guess what you mean. Are you suggesting the event is different somehow when viewed differently?
  7. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    No I'm suggesting that you don't always get as good a feel for the incident if you're not actually there. It's easier to get an idea at normal speed when it happens next to you, but of course another angle is always useful if the ref's vision is obscured.

    What I'm trying to get at is that Video reffing should be used to assist the referee as required or requested instead of replacing the referee.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  8. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    To be fair the draft system and salary cap work well and allow everyone except the Browns to have a crack at success!
    wfcmoog likes this.
  9. Keighley

    Keighley Squad Player

    Ray Knight, scummybear and Jumbolina like this.
  10. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    I don't know the particulars of VAR, but I am presuming at least the official monitoring it is in the stadium, watching the game too, rather than say, in our shoutbox watching the game on a stream.
  11. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    Spot on. I've seen incidents live that I swear blind were not reds in any way but on replays show anything from a dodgy yellow to an absolute red, depending on angle and speed of replay. I've reffed games where spectators claim to have seen the opposite to me because of their angle.

    World Cup final 66 is a classic example. Was the ball over the line or not depends entirely on what angle / camera / speed you watch it at.
  12. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Of course we occasionally get the odd beneficial decision, but over the years, the bad ones heavily outweigh the good, IMO. Regardless of what gets reversed, it would mean a decision is correct and fair if VAR was used. That's all I want when I'm watching a game of football. I hate when it's ruined by the incompetence of an official, which happens far too often.

    There is so much at stake, and football has the money and technology to get this right.
    dynamo380 likes this.
  13. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    You learn not to make frivolous appeals - as the cricketers have done (Well, until it's near the end of the match and they might as well risk it.)

    You can use reductio ad absurdum to oppose anything
    wfcmoog likes this.
  14. Luther Bassett

    Luther Bassett Reservist

    You trying to corner the market in Classical references, UB?
  15. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    As I understand it the use of VAR in this opening trial is extremely limited.
  16. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    But that's good!
  17. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    Yes - follow the rugby model and go back to the original infringement, so that fairness is seen to be done. You can't really stop play every time you want to discuss something because football is such a free-flowing game. But why could you not go back when the opportunity arises and invalidate the cheating.
  18. Forzainglese

    Forzainglese Reservist

    The referees are already undermined - the culture is to question everything that goes against you and to discuss to death every decision that they have made.
  19. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    2 incidents that either lead to a penalty or that was missed which might have caused one to be given have now seen a player charged..

    Lanzini for his dive against Stoke and the Burnley defender who elbowed Glenn Murray in the Brighton game.

    Now with VAR guess they could be punished and caught out during the game?
  20. onion8837

    onion8837 Reservist

    I have zero sympathy with refs - they have made a tough job virtually impossible by wanting to be best mates with the players and by wanting to be stars of the show themselves.

    At the start of the season I would say “any dissent is an immediate yellow card, any time wasting is an immediate yellow card”.

    It would be carnage for about 3 weeks and then it would all settle down - the players (and the managers) would get it and have to deal with it else they would have multiple suspensions
    FromDiv4 likes this.
  21. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Wasn't that supposed to happen but never did ?
  22. onion8837

    onion8837 Reservist

    Yes they probably booked some poor sod playing for Scunthorpe but no “stars” and then it gently faded away.

    Kicking the ball away was meant to be an automatic yellow - lingaard did it twice in 15 seconds against us and got nothing for either.

    Too scared of Mourinho et al to do anything positive about anything. Media also in the thrall of the managers - won’t ever contradict them or prove them wrong as it would mean no interview next week
    wfc4ever likes this.
  23. dynamo380

    dynamo380 Reservist

    The problem with punishing a player after the match is that it doesn't help the teams who were impacted by their cheating and the majority arnt retrospectively punished anyway. If VAR helps in this regards im all for it
    wfc4ever and Since54 like this.
  24. Mollyboo

    Mollyboo First Year Pro

    The fact that a punishing a cheat only aids the next two teams that the player would have faced is a big problem.

    Potentially a club could be unfairly treated three times - once for falling victim to cheating, and twice if a player like Coutinho, Hazard or Silva is banned from facing the cheated club's relegation rivals.

    If a player has been found guilty of diving, the 3 points should be awarded to the cheated team, no need for a ban.
  25. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    It's a sine qua non of street cred, bruv
    Ray Knight likes this.
  26. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    Another thing why does Silva have to say post game after red cards/dodgy calls...
    "I don't want to talk about referee".
    Mourinho does, Dyche does, Big Sam does, Wenger does. The list could go on.
    If Silva doesn't speak up then refs will keep doing it to us.
  27. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Have you read his comments after the Burnley and Palace games?
  28. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    Oh. Was he complaining about the ref?
    Well he shouldn't stop now if that was the case.
  29. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    "Marco Silva has implored referees not to 'make an example' out of Watford after launching an appeal against Marvin Zeegelaar's red card at Burnley.

    I saw two matches in the afternoon yesterday, the Liverpool and Manchester derbies, I saw more than one incident like the Zeegelaar one, and it was a yellow card every time.

    'It needs to be equal for everyone - not making an example of one team.

    The Premier League is a tough league, don't make an example out of Watford.

    'In the big matches, the big derbies, it's a tough game and a big game, you need to equal it with the others.

    'Our game was two teams competing really hard but respecting each other. It was a fair game.

    'The referee had a big influence and for me, it's not fair. We're appealing because we don't feel it is fair.'"

    That was after Burnley.
  30. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    That sort of worked well on Saturday then - one iffy red for both sides!

    Sure they had the soft penalty but we hardly got into the Huddersfield area to try and get one ourselves.

    Lets demand some good defending and less of our players lying on the floor pretending to be injured too rather than just hoping a ref might be nice to us.

    As Silva suggests not sure a club like us would get away with trying to influence the officials like a Jose or Wenger can because they don't simply care/listen or take notice.
  31. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    Imo VAR can only be applied consistently in matters of fact (eg. was that offside?), not conjecture (eg. did the player dive?) because there are too many variables at play. For example, was there contact? Was it deliberate? Did the 'diver' intend to dive? or move his body/leg to make contact? The speed of the players and how contact might or might not have leads to loss of balance? It's all too subjective.

    The reason why video evidence is looked at the week after is so that a panel can look at an incident in detail and deliberate over time (individually or collectively, whatever the rules are). The number of times we would all be waiting would break up the continuity of the game and make each half an hour long if we're not careful!

    One solution could be a system of appeals like they have in cricket or tennis, say, two per team? A panel of three ex-refs would then have 1 minute to consider the decision in isolation from each other and vote. Not perfect but an idea!
  32. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I would say VAR should be used for clear and obvious injustices. Anything that takes more than 30 seconds to decide over should default to the referees call automatically.
  33. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    So every weekend wirh 3 at every ground up to 60 ex-referees are needed to make the PL work? Referees from what level? Add in the Championship and you need another 72. Sounds pretty unworkable.
  34. The PozzMan

    The PozzMan Squad Player

    Double the linesmen. Would solve a lot more issues than people might think. One for each quarter of the pitch.
    dynamo380 likes this.
  35. PhilippineOrn

    PhilippineOrn First Team

    I think they'd be more useful than the ones behind the goals.
    The PozzMan likes this.

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