Referees

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    http://www.hertfordshiremercury.co....ws/are-referees-biased-against-watford-939011

    A good piece in the Mercury with a lot of the key incidents for decisions given against us with their verdicts.

    I would also add the debacle against City where they scored two offside goals, and the Aguero goal should have not have stood as there was a clear push and foul by Walker on Richarlison in the lead up to the goal. Also Chalobah was fouled for a clear penalty.

    I do believe we got lucky at Burnley with two decisions that went for us. Both disallowed goals for Burnley should have probably stood.

    You can see quite clearly, some of our recent games have been heavily influenced by poor officiating, and they have all come at important moments.

    I'm glad someone else has catalogue these events, and it would be good to keep check on things as we go along to see if this trends continues, halts or even reverses (yeah right...lol)
     
  2. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    All fair points (maybe we would have only lost 3-1 to Man City!) but our reputation won't be helped by Holebas for example throwing himself to the floor in order to claim a foul or even Cleverley claiming he'd done nothing wrong the other night v Palace.

    UEA said Richarlison had been the most fouled player but he does go down easily at times (suppose who doesn't..)

    Assistant refs do seem to get a lot wrong - is that because they are older or maybe not as good as the men in the middle?

    Mind you having seen that first goal we had about 6 defenders plus Gomes around the ball so we hardly helped ourselves.

    The soft decisions were their penalty and Hogg's yellow cards.

    Deeney was unlucky but no doubt previous incident might have played into Oliver's mind.
     
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It will be a great day for Watford football club when VAR is finally introduced, and it is coming.

    This will eradicate so many poor decisions, and officials will not get away with their bias, be it deliberate or unintentional, any longer. Smaller clubs will the huge beneficiaries of this new system.
     
  4. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    Won’t there be a delay in the match with each use of VAR though? Don’t get me wrong I can definitely see the benefits of the system but the start stop thing might get trying.

    Unless it’s done via ear piece instantly. Just a thought that’s all.
     
  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Probably no longer than it takes a ref to get the game re-started after all the arguements following a contentious call or a player has picked himself off the floor after a little roll around.

    Ofcourse players, managers and fans would have to then accept the final decision but not sure how likely that would be !
     
  6. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    It’ll just be something else for our fans to boo and blame for decisions that go against us......
     
    iamofwfc likes this.
  7. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    In think it’s time for VAR now. My theory as to why the powers that be have never wanted it is the publicity contentious decisions generate. Bad and controversial decisions get talked about for days after a game, and they all add to the the overall hype. You could get a dull 0-0 that seems more exciting if you have at least one controversial decision. I think it’s got to the point that it’s gone to far, and it’s detracting from the game.

    I don’t buy this nonsense that it would slow the game down, how long did Troy hang around on the pitch for on Saturday before finally leaving? More than enough time for a replay to be looked at multiple times.

    I think the best think about VAR is that it would remove the stupid rash decisions like Saturday. All they need is an attitude that if there is any doubt then go on the side of caution and don’t send the player off. Obviously you’ll have your blatant red cards (ironically like Deli Ali on Saturday who didn’t actually get one) and then you’ll have the ones that take three or four replays and are still not conclusive - well in this situation don’t ruin the game and send them off!

    The problem with the current situation is that both teams can be the victims of bad decisions during a game and both sets of players and fans leave feeling throughly pissed off.
     
    dynamo380 likes this.
  8. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    There are too many red cards full stop these days. Any hard tackle is at risk because the recipient of the tackle always jumps 2 feet in the air and screams even if he is not hurt at all. Ref is then surrounded by his team mates and invariably panics and gets the red out.
     
  9. Ray Knight

    Ray Knight First Year Pro

    I entirely agree HB1 as can't wait for VAR. It will eliminate some of the unconscious bias that smaller clubs like Watford regularly fall victim to. Referees are exposed to the media like the rest of us and it's big club let's crown citee today mentality. A worrying recent development have been ex-refs on a Monday morning saying this player or that player should be banned. It's like retired judges pontificating in cases that are waiting resolution. I would like VAR available to the fourth official who is also a referee and given full independent discretion to call the referee's attention to anything on the pitch that he may not have seen or where a key decision is involved. Proper match time keeping could also be recorded in the same way. The time taken re-consider is negligible and akin to consulting with a linesman. It would also sort out some diving incidents on the pitch rather than a three man panel after the game.
     
    hornetboy1 likes this.
  10. Diamond

    Diamond Squad Player

    How quickly you guys forget the Championship refs, [shudder].
     
  11. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    I agree what your saying about refereeing incidents creating more hype after the event but on Saturday the ref was in no doubt about both red cards so it wouldn’t have got to the VAR.
     
  12. Bubble

    Bubble Wise Oracle

    Having seen the decisions for the first time this morning I will be honest, I think he got all the big decisions correct, with exception of Hogg's second yellow!

    The first goal was clearly offside, but that should be the Lino supporting the ref there.

    Stonewall red on Deeney. He was reckless, out of control and got nowhere near the ball. Shame it's only a 4 game ban!

    Doucoure was unlucky for the pen but he still fouls the player. Anywhere else on the pitch and it's a free-kick.

    Never in a million years was Hogg's a second yellow. Very unlucky.
     
  13. Harrybassetthater

    Harrybassetthater Academy Graduate

    It should be like the challenge system in tennis where you get to challenge 2 decisions each half. If the first challenge to a decision is successful you still have 2 challenges remaining and so on.
     
  14. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    The timekeeping has become a joke. Refs constantly point at their watches when people are wasting time but rarely act. On Saturday there was 3 goals with one particularly long celebration, several subs and a couple of minor 2nd half injuries. Plus a couple of time ref warms keeper to speed up. Result? 4 minutes. Would have made no difference but it is a consistent theme.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I agree, that you can have a captains challenge, similar to tennis or cricket. An unsuccessful review will lose a challenge for later in the match.

    At the end of the day, no system is perfect, but it will aid the officials to get the correct call. VAR is coming to the game, like it or not, and its vital because all people want is the correct decision.

    I think a 4th official using VAR on the fly then letting the referee know of his howler on an earpiece should also be used independently. Although I think that would be a closed shop. No one will know who is being overruled, how many times and which club it occurs to. You would be able to measure the amount of successful appeals on the captain's calls though.
     
    hornmeister likes this.
  16. I think it must be because we wear yellow*. You can't really argue 'big club bias' when we are on the receiving end against the likes of Bournemouth and Huddersfield. However, I totally agree we are not getting an even handed treatment, and it must be seriously demoralising; if you think 'we played ****' then you also can think 'we can improve'. But if you think 'the officials don't want us to win' you must want to give up.

    * Analysis of bad decisions when we are wearing home or away kit might be interesting. Or not.
     
  17. kVA

    kVA Reservist

    I can’t see a 4th official overruling a decision if the ref has acted as quickly as he did on Saturday with Deeney. If there is doubt and the ref doesn’t show certainty then yes, otherwise it will remove the ref’s control.
     
  18. I think a ref would cover his arse in just about any sending off decision. Which would have the added benefit of 'calming down' the 'I'm the Star' refs.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  19. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    A fourth official cannot override a referee, nor should he be allowed to, but he can advise him he got it wrong and he should rethink his decision. If the referee ignores that, then he'll have a lot of explaining to do, but this is why I mentioned the closed shop bit.

    If a referee has an agenda, just like Clattenberg admitted to having recently, then VAR will not help, unless the fourth official VAR interaction is made public, just like in cricket or tennis. If it's a closed conversation between referee and fourth official, then no one will know VAR has been used and it can still be ignored without explanation. So VAR has to be made public, either during the incident or a disclosure saying it was used after the match.

    If a referee makes a mistake, it has to be overruled. We need to have the correct decisions being made. Anything that can help that accuracy has to be employed. Football should not go out of its way to protect the reputation of a referee. If he makes a mistake, that's fine. No one would mind if it's overruled for the correct decision. Also VAR would instantly appease everyone involved in an incident. A VAR backed decision would be trusted by every player, manager, coach and fan, just like goal line technology.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  20. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I'm in favour of VAR. But if we're not careful we'll end up with a rugby situation where everything remotely game changing goes upstairs for an "Is there any reason why I can't..." type review.
     
  21. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It would only go like that if captains have unlimited reviews, which I'm not an advocate of. Some games go without any incident at all. A game like Saturday, which was full of errors, would have had a review for the first goal, which was a natural break in play, a review for the Deeney sending off, which was a natural break in play, and also the Hogg dismissal, which again was a natural break in playas well as the Doucoure penalty incident.

    So you can see, even in a game with many controversial decisions, there would not have been any problem with the flow of the game. The thought that the game will be disrupted every 5 minutes, is highly unlikely. Once it is integrated it will be accepted and adapted to.

    Now the grey areas are things like penalties that should be given but are not and play continues. What I would suggest, for an incident like this, the game carries on but the fourth official automatically reviews and tells the referee within 5 seconds that there is something he would like to review in greater detail and play stops. With technology as good as it is these days, that can be done. We all wait, and the tension builds. It's actually exciting for the crowd. Will we get a penalty or not. If it is found the original decision was indeed correct, or too close to overrule, then the game restarts with a drop ball on the half way line.

    The most important thing is to get big decisions right. Referees are too fallible, but if that means a trade off with the flow of the game, then so be it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    wfcmoog likes this.
  22. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Completely agree.

    In the United vs City match, the ref gave 4 minutes when it was more like 7/8. In one of our matches earlier in the season, the ref gave 5 minutes when it should have been 2. It's completely subjective and lacking any consistency whatsoever.

    The ref already has too much stuff to do simultaneously. Take it out of his hands. An independent timekeeper needs to allow x number of seconds for every time the ball goes out of play/ per foul. That includes time within the injury time itself. Anything more is added on at the end. If the match clock has to physically stop, like in rugby, then fine.

    Whilst time wasting/ feigning injury will take place anyway to break up the momentum of the opposition attack, the players need to be incentivised to play actual football.
     
    Happy bunny likes this.
  23. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Fast forward to the year 2036 when we suffer five dodgy VAR decisions against us and HB1 starts to wonder if robots are against us....

    Just kidding.

    Sure VAR will sort out a lot of issues in dealing with correct calls and consistency. But I’d still like to see less-over-complication of the rules of the game. The offside rule...slide tackles...tackles from behind/the side...etc etc. All those new directives for referees on such things are still open to their own vague interpretation. I doubt VAR will clear all that up because once the referee see’s it again, it’s still his interpretation that will make the call. So we may see less offside goals - but I think we see just as much, if not more, vitriol aimed at officials when they uphold decisions even in the face of VAR.
     
  24. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    VAR is fine when a foul has already been given and therefore the ball isn't in play.

    I'm completely fine with an assistant with multiple angles determining if a straight red is appropriate, or if a given penalty has resulted from a dive. It takes the best part of a minute for a player to leave the field/ take a penalty anyway.

    The issue will be following a perceived foul, followed by an opposition counter attack. You cannot stop play, or every counter will lead to an appeal. What if the countering team score, and the VAR discovers that the foul should have been a penalty? Have the last 30 seconds been in vain?
     
  25. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    True. The Deeney red card is valid if you think he went in with excessive force. One ref will give it. One will not. And that’s even after video review. Ditto Zeegelar red.
     
  26. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    That happens in NFL though? Bloke runs 90 yard return touchdown and has dived into the crowd. Meanwhile there is a flag back at the 10 yard line and it’s 1st and goal the other way!
     
  27. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    If you gave a survey to PL supporters, I imagine most would want football to be as different to NFL as possible.

    It's a ridiculous game, with ridiculous rules (including the one you allude to above!).
     
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  28. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Dodgy decisions are all part of the game. Introducing all this technology will just drive a further wedge between the game at the top and the game at the bottom.

    The beauty of football is that it is exactly the same whether you are playing in the premier league, or for Terd fc in a sunday league. I know most people here are obese and have never actually kicked a football, but that's a fact.

    Or are you suggesting that all leagues must introduce this technology. If not, what division is the cut off? Who's going to pay for it all?
     
  29. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    I used to think that football rules were the same at all levels, but they're not. 4th official (somebody t take the blame for the onfield officials' decisions) is a pointless position, though ti would be nice to have a clock showing how long the ball had been in play - but goalline technology is an excellent innovation.

    As has been shown above, VAR wouldn't slow the game down if the number of appeals was limited, as in cricket. Who's going to pay for it? Take it out of the TV money!
     
  30. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Only trouble is a team might waste a review on a Holebas faking an injury type incident but then I guess if they take such a risk then it's up to them !

    Bit like in cricket where Joe Root seems to be pretty poor at calling a correct review !
     
  31. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    I was thinking more about the long term trend where VAR is brought in to assist referees but then slowly undermines them to the extent it becomes a crutch for them instead. I think there's evidence for that increasingly happening in both rugby and cricket in recent years. I'm not sure captains reviews cover it when the referee instigates it himself. Though I think you're right that in most cases it wouldn't slow the game down too much over and above what we already see.

    Although I'm not sure the waiting while the tension builds thing would play out as positively as you hope. I can see it being a big atmosphere killer once the novelty wears off.
     
  32. a19tgg

    a19tgg Squad Player

    Why not flip it all on its head? Why not have the actual match referee viewing everything via VAR and relaying the decisions to another ref on the pitch?

    I understand the issues with undermining a ref by having to overrule his decisions, so why not take that out of the equation with the ref on the pitch being there just to deliver the decisions and blow the whistle when appropriate.

    The person making the important calls would be in the best position to do so.
     
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  33. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    Whilst I agree that there is a tendency to favour larger teams, we tend not to remember bad decisions that have gone our way. In the last few games: Zeegelaar should've had a second yellow against Spurs; one of Burnley's offside goals could've stood; Kabasele rugby tackled Benteke in the box; and Janmaat should've had a second yellow this weekend. When they go for us, we tend to shrug and think it's all part of the game - it's when they go against us that they're seen as a burning injustice.
     
    Jack5, wfc4ever, Burnsy and 1 other person like this.
  34. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Not a bad shout but as we have seen stuff on video reply in slow mo from multiple angles can look very different to the actual event. There's a level of detachment and also you don't get an idea of any intended malice.

    The issue is players haranguing the ref. It;s already agaisnt the rules, they need to enforce them with yellows. Players shouldn't speak to the ref unless spoken to unless they are the captain, which imho should be an outfield player. That combined with a 2 bad decision challenges rule per half and that will sort 90% of the problems.
     
    Forzainglese likes this.
  35. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Refs need to get better at sorting out the acting. For Deeney's sending off a Huddersfield player comes charging over to show his OUTRAGE. Eric Dier was OUTRAGED at the mere suggestion that he handled the ball and rushed to Richarlison to indicate what a cheat he is. The Huddersfield player who won the penalty took off into the air such was his emotion at being mildly tackled.
     
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