Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by hornetboy1, May 24, 2015.
Nah, I didn't think so.
Didn't think you would.
In many ways I am sad to see Sanchez leave. I thought he was a very likeable manager, although I would like a bit more clarity in his interviews and was becoming a bit fed up of the 'amazing' catchphrase. Still, his stock is very high and I'm sure he won't have much trouble getting back into work as quickly as it suits him.
I was surprised and a bit disappointed at the condemnation and castigation by so many Watford fans. If he had stayed and we'd started next season as we ended this, then that would have grown into the something like the nasty, bitter oustings that are so popular at other clubs (e.g. Everton recently). So I'm glad that such an evidently decent and capable chap didn't have to go through that. In that sense, I'm glad he's gone now.
I was content enough with him. Some of the wins were a delight. The Arsenal cup win was super-sweet and will be remembered for a few years. For the first time in the Premiership era, we held our own and for the most part, gave 'em a game. You see, like some others on here, I come from a Pre-GT time when our best ever finish in the whole of our history was 19th in the second division and L*t*n were, by some distance, the 'bigger' local club.
So you can imagine that perhaps I am easier to please than you sit-down, £50-a-ticket hyper-critics. "Oh that international didn't pass it to that other international! We only drew with Chelsea! Sack the manager!". You can see why it seems a bit, well, demanding and spoilt.
Your views are fair. I would suggest though that the castigation of Quique has come about at least partially because of some fans defending Quique with whatever argument would fit, however awkwardly. I think it is pretty unfair that Gino's buying policy has been criticised when it has been made clear that the most disappointing players were Quique's own selection. I think it is unfair that very good, premier league quality players are being slated as failures on the grounds not that they play poorly, but that Quique won't pick them. I think that it was very unfortunate that people who suggested early on that Quique wasn't ideal for this club got slated by other posters for expressing a view that virtually everyone now agrees with. I think it is also very unfair that people suggest that the Quique out camp were saying get rid now, when it was absolutely clear that the vast majority of people concerned about him wanted him to complete the season and move on before the next. A view that I think is very reasonable, and so it seems does everyone now.
So I make no complaint about what you have said, but I think it is fair to provide a little balance to the situation, and suggest that if people had listened to what was being said, for a very long time now, without taking offence on behalf of a head coach about whom the concerns raised proved to also be those of the club's owner, then the castigation of Quique would have been less, and the response to the abuse received for questioning him would have been more measured.
TBH. I'm glad he has gone. He was holding the team and the club back. he was told to push on, and did not want to know.
Thanks and good riddance.
This is a roundabout way of saying that people who think it's utterly ludicrous that he has been a) sacked and b) slagged off harshly, have always been wrong and should go with the tide on this forum.
For me personally, I still think it's a mad decision, and I think what's even more evident now is that this uncertainty over his position has been there for some time, which I believe has contributed to team performances over the past two months.
Thankfully I also believe the views on this forum are not representative of the wider sentiment towards him.
Would you agree that Gino knows better than any of us here?
No. I am saying in a very direct way that a view, that turned out to be vindicated by the Club's decision not to take a second year option on Quique for the same reasons stated on this forum, didn't deserve to be received with abuse, but perhaps be permitted a little of the respect that its detractors express should have been given to Quique.
However, what you seem to be saying in a round about way is that the majority of people didn't want Quique to go. Personally I would disagree with that opinion.
Why not just leave it at thanks?
Ok, I strongly disagree. I think many on here have lost their heads.
Part of the future legacy I would personally like to see as part of this Pozzo era is a manager we can identify with as strongly as we do the likes of Troy Deeney, (a good example, as he survived a very tough three years before becoming our hero). At some point, the disruption will bite us on the arse. His next appointment needs to be one that sticks around for longer than a year.
I agree that a talismanic manager would be a good thing for the club. Whether it is the next or the one after, I don't know. Udinese got Guidolin, who seems to have been about the closest thing to it under the Pozzos.
Although it would be a good thing, for me, I am at least relieved that we won't hold on to a manager that is not working. That's not a dig at Quique, as I think it applied to Zola just as much. I would like to have seen Slav get a chance and was disappointed he didn't, but then we got in a manager who was very capable of keeping us in the Premier League.
I guess I am hoping this is the price we pay for getting to where we want to be, and that at some point stability will become Gino's main concern.
i'd like to say thanks to flores for keeping us up. I wanted him out and the more I hear pundits talking about Watford the more It confirms my beliefs. Its not about entertainment but about belief in the team. We were terrible since March. The players dont look like they care apart from the usual suspects. A few week back on motd someone said watford cant afford to take this form into next season. Our owners change it and are castigated. If you take the last few months id love to hear from qsf fans why we should have kept him on.
I agree with this. The application, desire and intensity needed to win matches started to disappear around the time we played Southampton away. We got it back for the occasional game, but performances were on the decline.
Maybe players thought it was job done, but we cannot afford to be like that. Look at Leicester, they got to 40 points but pushed on. We must be like that also. We need players who can play at this level without having to play at 100% every week. It's asking a lot to get players to play above themselves in every match and I think this was one of the major reasons behind the decline.
Agreed. If you haven't got the players to realise your philosophy, then it would be foolish to persist with it or force square pegs into round holes. Too many players were being asked to do jobs that was not their natural game, but over and again they were asked to do it. The biggest problem in that situation is if you are not able to adapt to what you have got, and are unable make changes to suit your team.
You have hit the nail on the head.
And that is why he would be a complete disaster if he went to Leeds as is reported.
Great post Travis. Thank you.
This isn't against you specifically hornetboy but the slump being talked about makes me say again that its not uncommon for a dip in form during a cup run, happened this season , not just with us but Palace and Everton also, and many seasons before this one by other clubs. A fair few forum members who said sacking him was right seemed to have mentioned QSF tactics, etc but overlooked this point or just don't want to mention it.
Palace's was mainly injuries
Everton because Martinez is ****e.
I don't think the FA Cup has too much to do with our slump in form. It's just coincidence that 3 of the four semi final sides were on a bad run. I think it could well affect players when you get to the quarter finals, so from that point onwards there could be something in what you say, but the downturn was already established.
Our slump started before we even played Newcastle in the third round. We had already lost 2 games and were lucky to beat Newcastle with a rather lame performance.
The shame of it is, had we been in the same form as pre christmas, we had a really good and realistic opportunity to win the FA cup
It could be a lifetime before before it comes around again
I don't think so, I believe it will become a much more regular thing to go on cup runs.
I disagree, of those 2 lost matches, we were a gnat's c**k away from going 2-1 up against Spurs from Watson's corner and played well enough to get a draw with 10 men; Spurs then won it from an offside goal. In the next match just before Man City equalised we were very close to going 2-0, Capoue missed a very good chance if I remember correctly, we were very tired. Our slump started from the Newcastle Cup game not before despite losing the previous 2 matches.
I thought that when we got trounced by Spurs in 1987. Turned out Cup runs didn't come round so often after that.
The starting point around that time, that's all I'm saying, but not because of the FA Cup run. Those two defeats hit the team hard and it started the downturn in form.
It's not so much the slump in form that did for him though is it, but his utter inability or willingness to try and break us out of the slump.
If he'd been trying to arrest the slump by trying new formations, new tactics, playing different players etc then he would have been viewed very differently.
But instead of that we got exactly the same team, tactics and results for months and months. That's why he had to go.
The players are tired - then rotate them ffs. Number of players with more than 10 starts: 14. Ridiculous.
Yesterday's team selection absolutely exemplified the stubbornness. Cathcart at RB, when it had already been proved not to work, after a shocker at Norwich, Paredes and Nyom on the bench.
Resulted - one substitution wasted, no Berghuis.
Manatleisure- let's have a rationale for that.
Post of the season?
We played OK up to Christmas and had a handful of really good performances. But, personally, I was never that happy with the tactics. I thought we were usually too defensive and far too reliant on our opponents making mistakes at the back and us being able to hold out at the back against wave after wave of attacks from teams who had little to worry about from our forwards - and I said so in several posts, suggesting that the decent results wouldn't last. The much acclaimed (by the MOTD pundits) Deeney/Iggy partnership was a fallacy for most of the season. It just wasn't working.
I also said how stuffed we would be if Iggy got injured and was appalled when QSF said that we didnt need more attackers. Iggy didnt get injured, but he may as well have been, and we suffered, and it was criminal that we had no alternatives.
It was appalling mismanagement from the coach and the club, in my opinion, and we are very lucky not to have been nearer the relegation zone. More injuries may have seen us go down.
I also disagree with the view that players weren't trying. Maybe the last few games they were losing a little intensity, but I felt that for 95% of the season they all were trying exceptionally hard to impress, maybe even too hard. I think having to try so hard doing things that you are just not comfortable with, just takes its toll, alongside the knowledge that, if they were not amongst the chosen few, they would not get an extended run in the team. It doesn't help to get moaned at constantly by the crowd, either, like some players had to experience. Fans that do that have got the brains of a rocking horse.
We only got 17 points from the last 63 points available, yet we are 13th. Just imagine how high we could next season be with a few additions up front, with a more attacking style of play and a bit more freedom to express and confidence - and we actually started to play well.
I don't even think we need to add to the back line apart from left back to replace Ake and Holebas (if he leaves).
My personal credit for our successful season goes to Gomes, Ighalo and Deeney (in that order).
Gomes kept us in so many games that we had no right to be in with some incredible saves. While he made a couple of errors this year, there's no doubt he won us many more points than he lost us.
Ighalo's incredible run of goalscoring form where everything he touched turned to goald (hur hur) won us a bunch of points.
Deeney's selfless teamplay (notably setting up Iggy during the purple patch), dogged set piece defense, leadership and ability to put the penalties away did the rest.
I think QSF lucked out in that Ighalo had a period where he went into the form of his life and helped us pick up a stupid number of points in very short period. Looking back on the season now, Iggy's goalscoring streak was incredibly important in terms of us staying up.
QSF's tactical approach might work better in a team that's made up of incredibly good to world class players, but we don't have a squad like that. For us, his approach seemed incredibly limiting and thoroughly dependent on individual moments of magic/significant opposition errors in order for us to score points. The best managers fit the tactics to the squad rather than fitting the squad to the tactics by hook or by crook. He seemed to want us to play a certain way and then went about trying to make the squad play like that, despite the fact we clearly didn't have the right personnel for it.
Not sure what you want me to say. It was his last game and he put out a team he thought would win the game.
If England don't win the Euros we should blame Flores for playing Deeney out of position when Woy came to watch.
That is all.
But he got it wrong. Again. Despite having had the same opportunity as the thousands of onlookers to realise that the turgid formation with players out of position would not work.
The negative tactics were a sound basis for the season, but Quique's failing was that he refused to build on this.
A slight change here and there to chase a game with positivity, when we'd gone behind, rather than sticking on another RB would've been a start.
Trying alternative attacking options when plan A failed
Using the squad more effectively to counter tiredness and loss of form
Accepting the offer of attacking alternatives such as Gestde, Iturbe and Adebayor
Taking a slightly more positive approach to games against teams lacking in form and confidence (NB there is a middleground between our formation and 'going gung Ho' which people fear would've led to us losing every game 6-1)
Adopting a change in formation to suit players in form/fit and to best deal with the opposition
If Quique had done some of this, he'd still be here next season.
Plus negative tactics with a team designed not to concede was not particularly in evidence against Norwich. A team so bad manager less Everton walloped them 3-0
I think the most significant moment of the season for me was when Quique discussed Amrabat as a striker.
That was a real, who on earth do we have in charge moment.