Quique Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Steve Leo Beleck, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    We are going to sleep walk into relegation with Quique at the helm, going down with a whimper scoring hardly any goals. Either we get rid of him now, or it'll be too late...
  2. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Four games......about right for a new manager to get one of these posts.
    Bwood_Horn and ITK platypus like this.
  3. Jimb976

    Jimb976 Academy Graduate

    I’m not suggesting he should be sacked but from where we sit (SEJ just a few rows behind the dug outs) it was absolutely clear that nobody in our team except Pereyra was listening to anything QSF had to say. His frustration was completely apparent and for most of the first half he looked utterly p!ssed off that nobody was following any instruction he gave

    In the other dug out, Wilder also barked out orders constantly, much of which seemed to be paid attention to by his charges
    wfc4ever likes this.
  4. RS2

    RS2 Academy Graduate

    It wasn't pretty but today the team showed some form of structure which is a step in the right direction.

    On another day Gray and Welbeck put their chances away and we win comfortably.

    I'm willing to give Quique more time. Signs of defensive improvement are there at last, we just need to work on transitions up the pitch because it was all a bit slow and forced today. That could be due to the lack of confidence.
    CleyHorn likes this.
  5. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever First Team Captain

    Gray was offside apparently which is nearly as criminal as the miss itself !
  6. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    So the players all collectively decided to sit back and let Sheffield Utd have the ball of their own accord? On one hand today is being criticised as a typical QSF performance, yet on the other none of the players are listening to him?
  7. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    I heard an interview with the Cheltenham manager last week on the radio. His 5 minute slot was genuinely a superb listen, captivating. I'd love to get someone like that in.

    I don't think QSF is a terrible choice all things considered. I think he's doing ok with what's at his disposal, which isn't great, and he's having to instill confidence into a team with no leaders.

    Reminds me of when we nearly went down (forget which year) and we got the limited footballer that was Danny Cullip in to bark at the players for 90 minutes and gee them up, whilst booting the opposition around. Made a big difference and we are desperate for someone who can do that.
    jrmich9 likes this.
  8. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    Regardless of QSF being the right or wrong choice, we pursued Everton for an unwarranted approach for our manager, four games into a season any half decent manager will be employed. Once the decision to sack Javi was made our options were always going to be extremely limited. I’m not saying he’s beyond criticism, but really what are the alternatives?
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  9. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    Not really. Pereyra took too long getting the pass away.
    Steve Leo Beleck and RS2 like this.
  10. RS2

    RS2 Academy Graduate

    Haven't seen it back and I'm not defending Gray because it was a shocker, but Pereyra seemed to take ages and then smash it across goal.
    wfc4ever likes this.
  11. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I think Flores was chosen for convenience only. Had it been the summer, and we were looking for a new manager, I'm not sure Flore's name would have even been on the list.

    He was out of work, knew the Premier League, knew Watford, likely could hit the ground running and was someone the fans would probably accept after Gracia.

    These are not really valid reasons to appoint someone though. He's not someone who will take Watford in a carefully considered direction as part of the evolutional plan. He's a sticking plaster appointment in the vain hope he'll be able to salvage the situation.

    It's not that I have anything against Flores, but I feel he's a manager who should belong to our past, with credit rightly given for the job he did in keeping Watford up in our first season. But it did go wrong in the end, and his career post-Watford has hardly been spectacular. A bit of a failure in fact.

    If he keeps us up, then he's worthy of the appointment and has done us a huge favour. But I just don't see him as someone who can develop Watford into anything more than a defensive side, who only wants to stop the opposition scoring. There doesn't seem to be any other string to his bow.
    Davidmsawyer and Sahorn like this.
  12. a19tgg

    a19tgg Reservist

    I agree entirely with everything you’ve said, equally I don’t see what other choice we had. If he’d been in a job somewhere in Europe I doubt we’d have even considered him, but he just so happened to be available.

    There are not that many good unemployed managers, certainly not four games into a season, not that we ever appoint the ‘real deal’ anyway, we always point mangers with a question mark.

    As I said he shouldn’t be beyond criticism, but I think the reality is that for better or worse he is here and I can’t see any viable alternatives.

    What half decent manager in their right mind would leave their job now to take over a club rooted to the bottom of the league? The only manager that would consider it would be a successful manager from the lower leagues who fancied the opportunity at a higher level. The Pozzos don’t hire that type of manager and it would also take that type of manager time to bed in, if indeed they did at all.
  13. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I’m normally a supporter of SLB’s posts. But this is not sensible. These players won’t play for any manager in their current mindset. The issues are deeper than the manager. It’s clear now to me that getting rid of Gracia wasn’t the whole answer - this problem goes deeper.
  14. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    He's not a new manager though. He's an old manager. We've seen it all before. Couldn't turn a team around last time when the wheels came off so why will be this time?
    Ágætis Byrjun likes this.
  15. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Agree with this. The playing squad has been allowed to age slowly, and we’ve ended up in a situation where we’ve got a lot of players who are past their prime, and have become complacent. There’s been almost no competition for places in the squad, and a real lack of young players who have been able push older players into the background.

    Beyond Quina, and perhaps Wilmot, do we have any young players who you’d look at and think they’d be able to push for a place in the team? We’ve not signed quality youngsters, and the ones we have signed, we’ve done a disgraceful job of developing them and giving them opportunities to impress.

    I was somebody who looked at our squad before this season started and was foolish enough to believe we’d be okay. I think we’ve massively underestimated the impact that age can have on performance, especially in a league that appears to moving toward more high-energy pressing and speed. We’ve been left behind, and it’s largely because we’ve been satisfied to rely on the same faces over the last 3-4 years without any attempt to make our squad younger, quicker, and more suited to where the league is going.
  16. Conceded 20 goals in the last 7 league games.

    Last Watford clean sheet before today - 2nd February.

    Quique was brought in to do a job. It started today.

    We needed to sort out the defence first and worry about the other end second.
  17. Steve Leo Beleck

    Steve Leo Beleck Squad Player

    We have attempted to make the squad younger but there's been a systemic failure of scouting and selection choices. Masina was obviously intended to be our first choice left back but has mainly looked out of his depth when he's been on the pitch. Chalobah probably would've been a regular starter for us but his injury looks to have finished him as a top flight player. We signed Lukebakio, gave him 15 minutes in a dreadful team away performance then binned him off. Berghhuis, Peñaranda, Success and Oulare are all younger options that haven't worked out. We have two young keepers on the books that we won't even trust in Cup games.

    Deulofeu, Hughes and Richarlison are all younger players that have made significant contributions. Kabasele, Gray and Kiko were all entering their prime as players when we signed them. An attempt has been made to lower the squad age, the problem is, most of the players signed just aren't good enough so we have to rely on the older players.
  18. SkylaRose

    SkylaRose Reservist

    After Gracia was booted, we all (or most of us) said the next three games are going to be very tough for him to break into. Arsenal, Abu Dhabi City and Wolves. We expected nothing, and to be fair we got nothing bar a point against a very poor Arsenal side who literally gave us the point. We won't talk about the Citee game that was just a disgrace in every sense of the word, and Wolves we were pretty poor despite having more of the ball.

    We were absolutely proved correct. Now, I am in no way defending the team as all three of those performances bar 45 vs Arsenal were pathetic and we deserved to lose them. We looked at the games after, Sheff Utd H, Spuds A. Muff H and said yes, a possible seven points there. We messed up big time yesterday with the first one. Ok, we didn't lose, but we had more than enough chances to win it. Utd were very poor and hardly threatened despite having so much more possession than we did. It was like the Wolves game in reverse, but they took their chances.

    Gray I will forgive as after seeing MotD it could of been ruled out even if it had gone in, but the miss was really bad. Welbeck really should gone around the keeper or squared it to Gray, and Dawson probably had the one massive chance and to be fair to him did get it on target but Henderson made a stunning save. It wasn't for the lack of trying, but overall the game was as dull as dishwater but we kept them out - which is something.

    Yesterday was the start of seeing what he can do, he has had long enough with the team now, and the formations he has tried is showing he can switch things up. We play like we did
    yesterday at Spuds we may get a draw, which would be a good result for us. If, and that's a massive IF, we beat Muff in three weeks time we will still be in the bottom three but progress would have been made in general.

    I give QSF credit because I truly do not think he is solely to blame for the performances. It's player attitude and desire. We have spoken about this so often, and after watching the
    interview yesterday on the official site with Emma Saunders, Prodl and Tommy Smith, when Emma asked Prodl if he though yesterday we had turned a corner, he was very real in his answer to her. He didn't hide away and said he knows we are in a very difficult situation at the moment, and even he doesn't know if we can get out of it.

    QSF may or may not be the answer, but if he is, then fair play to him. Getting rid of him just because of a bad start is not the answer, he needs to find a system that works and make the players stick to it and understand their roles. If he cannot do that, or they don't want to try -- then let's look at other options.
  19. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    We should have scored two or three (Gray offside?) goals and won yesterday. It's not Quique's fault we didn't. Had we taken one of those chances then there would have been a whole different mood on here today.

    Fine margins.
    Rozerhorn likes this.
  20. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Same for Gracia really. Gray score his chance against Brighton at 0-1 or Hughes v West Ham at 1-1 or Newcastle handball goal is ruled out and it's a different league table. A lot of our demise is down the shortcomings of our players rather than the managers.
    Rozerhorn, SkylaRose and CleyHorn like this.
  21. We hate 48

    We hate 48 Reservist

    Just thinking about the Wolves result-average age of their starting eleven was 26-ours was 30 yesterday. Wolves have 5 players aged 28 or over we have only one- Doucoure- aged under 28.
    luke_golden likes this.
  22. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Well.....I do get what you're saying but you can blame Flores. He picked Gray over Deulofeu. Everyone knows Gray has no composure in front of goal, yet we all act surprised when he misses a sitter. Like it's an unusual thing for him to have done. I'd have been more surprised had he taken that chance and I didn't expect him to score it. I expected him to miss and he did. So you can blame the coach for picking a player so woeful in front of goal and expect him to be the guy who will score the goals for us.

    He set up the team to be ultra-defensive in one of our most likely wins of the season. What would have happened had Cathcart scored that own goal? How would that ultra-defensive team turned the game around? You see the system we played yesterday all falls apart if we concede the first goal. There is not enough intent in order to get back into the game. We would have lamely gone on to lose 0-1 without any shots on goal, in all probability.

    It's a damage limitations side Flores is creating. There's nothing wrong with that approach in away games, or against very strong opposition at home. But in the few winnable games we have left, it's totally the wrong approach, and you have to blame the coach for that. Had we won 1-0, it would have been a bit of a let off for us. If you set up to be that defensive, you don't deserve anything more than a 0-0 draw.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  23. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    Before QSF arrived, I don't think there was too much wrong with 'the other end'. OK, we weren't scoring but only because our strikers have their boots on the wrong feet. We were creating chances.
    We're in a mess entirely of our own making. Javi didn't do a lot wrong - he was just massively let down by some p155poor recruiting during the summer. If we'd spent the Sarr money on 2/3 defenders we'd be flying. Giraldi should be made to walk the plank. And that smug t u rd Duxbury
  24. Totally agree that the Star money should have gone on a couple of defenders. We had enough going forward and didn't really need Sarr as much as we did defence.

    But with regard to Javi not doing a lot wrong, I reckon we'd have conceded v sheff utd with him in charge so would have needed to score to get a point or more.

    Qsf has at least stopped the rot of goals against, for one week at least.
  25. Harrow Orn

    Harrow Orn Squad Player

    Finally got a clean sheet. And finally looked quite solid defensively in a game.

    For me, that is a start. And a certainly something to build on. If we can show a similar solidity away to Spurs, then I think Quique would deserve massive credit. Get the defence sorted now and focus on attack later. We'll scrape a couple of wins with a solid defence which will build confidence as well.

    I honestly dont know what else he can do apart from approach it this way.
  26. R4E

    R4E Reservist

    And that's clearly been his brief.
  27. hornmeister

    hornmeister Administrator Staff Member

    Against Arsenal we had over 30 attempts.

    We have the 4 th highest number of shots in the Premier League this year.

    We have the lowest number of goals scored, 4

    Team Goals Shots Ratio
    Manchester City 27 168 16.07%
    Wolverhampton Wanderers 12 76 15.79%
    AFC Bournemouth 13 85 15.29%
    Liverpool 20 131 15.27%
    Leicester City 14 93 15.05%
    Chelsea 18 133 13.53%
    Tottenham Hotspur 14 105 13.33%
    Burnley 11 87 12.64%
    Aston Villa 13 107 12.15%
    Arsenal 13 108 12.04%
    West Ham United 11 94 11.70%
    Norwich City 10 90 11.11%
    Crystal Palace 8 85 9.41%
    Sheffield United 7 78 8.97%
    Brighton and Hove Albion 8 94 8.51%
    Manchester United 9 110 8.18%
    Southampton 8 107 7.48%
    Newcastle United 5 76 6.58%
    Everton 6 102 5.88%
    Watford 4 113 3.54%

    3.5% of shots scored
  28. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    QSF has one job and that's to keep up within reachable distance of 17th place by the time the transfer window opens.
    leighton buzzard horn likes this.
  29. Lloyd

    Lloyd Reservist

    And what will happen then? Will we suddenly find the 2/3 defenders our 'scouting network' spent all summer scouring the globe for? And if we do, if we're still in the 5h1t will Pozzo spaff the millions that it'll need to bring them in?? I reckon the answers are 'no' and 'no'.
    Jack5 likes this.
  30. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    It is shocking. And it doesn’t feel to me like we’ve been attempting loads of speculative long shots. I know sometimes the stats show a team had loads of shots but really they had a lot of long range efforts so it looks like they were penetrating more than they really were.

    even if we double our effectiveness we would still be in the bottom 3 of your table!
  31. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Danny Cullip. Wow. Great memory.
  32. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    It still arrived at Gray, who was 2 yards from an open goal.

    Ok it was a bit behind him, but he didn't even seem surprised to miss it. He wheeled away with the reaction of someone who sent a 26 yarder just over, rather than someone who just cost his side a probable win with his abject profligacy.
    folkestone orn and Chumlax like this.
  33. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I think what it's shown is that Javi wasn't necessarily your problem. He did look to flounder somewhat towards the end, but that was likely because he ran out of ideas of how to get a tune out of this cowardly, spineless group of mercenary players.

    Changing managers and seeing much the same in terms of result suggests that the fault is deeper than one man. The whole model, recruitment policy and strategy should be questioned.
    domthehornet and Jumbolina like this.
  34. RS2

    RS2 Academy Graduate

    Oh yeah, like I say it was a shocking miss. It's not the first time we've seen finishing like that from Gray either unfortunately.

    What I will say for him is that he constantly gets in positions like that, I know that's of little use when he balloons it over the top but eventually some go in. Welbeck was up there with him but I don't think Troy would have got there (too slow) or Deulofeu either (lack of striker instinct), who knows what Success would be doing! I do think Gray is best used as an impact sub though because he will find himself in one of those positions if we are chasing a goal and occasionally he'll stick it away!
    wfcmoog likes this.
  35. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    He ran in too fast. He was blind to the fact he ran into an offside position. The pass to him was absolutely perfect though. That's why it was a little bit behind him. Had he timed his run better, which he had all the time in the world to judge correctly, as he was standing on his own, he'd have been coming onto the ball from an onside position to tap it in.

    It was poor play by a poor player. This is why he missed it. He timed his run wrong, and overran the pass. This is why he missed it.

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