Points Progress 17/18

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by Davidmsawyer, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    It will be a remarkable achievement if Gracia matches or exceeds QSFs 45 points. Will matching Walter with three wins and a draw in the last 10 be good enough this year is the question.
     
  2. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    If we had won at West Ham I could have imagined it - but now will be happy with 40 points
     
  3. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    My ‘tribute’ to the Floyd, as plagiarism is known these days.
     
  4. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Were you about to make a balloon dog or Lars Melvang or some such?
     
  5. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    At some point, historians of WFC will come to reappraise the QSF season.

    29 points by Christmas & a semi at Wembley.

    First non yo yo relegation since SGT & beyond.

    Beating Barca two weeks ago.

    Enough to give me a semi & I’m not even at Wembley right now.

    Must have been major miscommunication between him & Gino.

    Failure to work alongside coaches is the big weakness of Gino so far.

    Achilles heel, Troy, etc.
     
  6. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    It's true. That QSF season is a benchmark we look unlikely to beat again this year.

    The only Semi you get for Watford now is on the Met Line.
     
  7. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Please desist from brazenly writing my network password for my last 3 jobs on a public forum.
     
  8. Beating Barca a few weeks ago makes his time here better? I think that says a lot for how people can be a tad fickle. I think watching his games in the second half of the season, and his devisive, exclusive and inflexible method will be the things I continue to judge him on.

    I really appreciate what he achieved, over-all, but I am damned happy he was moved on at the end of the season.
     
  9. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    Exactly.

    The q is why did it all fall apart so swiftly with QSF after a superb first half season?

    Was it purely down to a falling out with the squad, or at least key players?

    Unlikely, I would think, given what they collectively had achieved by Christmas.

    I would be intrigued to learn more about Pozzo's management style. Does it in some way spark confrontation & make fruitful long term working relationships with most successful Head Coaches difficult to achieve?

    It doesn't have to be this way under the Pozzo Model - Guidolin was around some time at Udinese - but Gino ain't his father.
     
  10. Question of egos I imagine.

    I think QSF and Sliver are quite similar egotists, and although the model will most certainly have been pointed out to them, both seemed to rail against it and attempt to prove personal points, rather than do what was best for the Club.

    Personnally I'd go with Gino's ego over either of those two coaches, and think it is very fortuitous for the club that we didn't shape ourselves or commit ourselves to Silva. That would have been a disaster, and his only concern would have been with his reputation if we had gone down.

    Gino has an ego, but extends it by reflecting himself and his values in this club: if he gets something wrong, his ego demands that he put it right and be seen to have done so, not just by his peers, but also by himsef.

    Silva, for sure, and to a similar if slightly lesser extent QSF, have very self centric egos, IMHO, that doesn't extend much beyond their Gucci underpants: I they get something wrong, it is not their fault, their problem or their responsibilty, and they consider themselves peerless by ttheir own terms.

    Until Gino looses it, which seems a long way off, I would have him in charge of this club before any other person alive that I can think of. The very ide of allowing Silva free reign fills me with repulsion. I would be concerned if the club pandered to the egos of car crashes like this, and we regularly see what happens when other clubs do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  11. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    The point is that if you own & manage a business, you should be way beyond tussling with egos.

    You are in charge.

    My hypothesis is that Gino has repeatedly got dragged down into me vs him personal business.

    The most effective leaders don’t have to stamp their authority on matters.

    Their authority is respected.

    Gino is either poor at selecting coaches or poor at working with them.

    Evidence suggests the latter.

    Scope to improve. Beta.
     

  12. The most effective leaders don’t have to stamp their authority on matters. That is about as good a description of how Gino has managed this club since he got here.

    Gino's requirement is that coaches apply their good skills without allowing distractions (in the case of Quique and Silva, their own egos) to disrupt the work they are contracted to do. He has allowed ultimate leeway, as with Quique and Walter, by, having recognised the wrong man is in the job, honoring their contracts and not dismissing them prematurely, allowing their dignity and, by making no comment, allowing their own account of events the greater weight (a sign of an ego kept well in check). He has even been shown to refrain from intervention when extremely displeased by what he sees going on (e.g. tripping over travel bags in the changing room).

    If anything, his ego, seeing himself as the ultimately controlled, emotionally removed uber-professional, has ensured that he does not get into tussles, allowing his coaches to fall on their own sword by their actions (e.g. Quique's claimed insistance on a break clause at the end of his first season).

    Silva is the only coach where there has been any confirmed or publicised confrontation; and even that was a matter of being called into the office on Sunday moring. Both Walter and Quique indicated that if anything, Gino stepped back and let them get on with things, despite ultimately (we now know) having decided not to continue with either. That is part of the reason why the Silva situation is so extraordinary. The Portuguese must have done something extremely destructive (well, I guess we could all see that, and it is directly mentioned in the Club's statement) to have raised Gino's concerns the way he did.

    I think Gino has a massive ego but thankfully very few insecurities; it seems that one of the things that satisfies it most is separating it from decision making and professionalism; at Watford at least, he has built a world for himself where that is reflected. If he were intent on imposing his ego on the world, he would have a column in the programme, and would be heard in the press constantly.

    The scope to improve is always there. That is why Gino had no problem with removing that troublesome serpent when it became clear he was not the professional we hoped he could be. No tussle. Just an expectancy that Silva would honor his contract, and a firm hand when it became clear that Silva did not have the Club's interest in mind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  13. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    I don't think Gino sees it as a problem. The Pozzo model is that the club and management structure is more important than the head coach. The structure is built to survive changes. I am sure if a manager completes a full successful season he will survive to the next season - unless he asks for more and Gino thinks he can replace with a better person. I think Jokavich would have remained if his demands did not price him out - Gino clearly thought he could get better for less money.
     
    424TheBeautifulGame likes this.
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Coaches will come and go. Good ones will move up the ladder. Poor ones will be replaced. I think it will be an exception when one stays for more than a season or two. He would have to be just about successful enough for Gino to keep him on but not successful enough to get a role at a bigger club. I don't think there is an issue between the coaches and Gino. They both know where they stand.
     
    424TheBeautifulGame and Sting like this.
  15. Ray Knight

    Ray Knight First Year Pro

    We should always bear in mind that Gino is a graduate of Harvard Business School so we should trust he knows what he is doing in developing the club.
     
  16. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Quique got away with so much because of Iggy’s form.

    When his goals dried up, Quique’s tactics were useless.
     
    Bwood_Horn likes this.
  17. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    The current position is:
    • 2 points better than this time last year (33 vs 31). This is 3 points better than after the last game.
    • 7 points better than the comparable fixtures last year (33 vs 26). This is the same as after the last game
    • 4 points better than the '40 point' line (33 vs 29). This is 2 points better than after the last game.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Sahorn, EB Hornet, magic and 3 others like this.
  18. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    It's starting to look much better now!

    The current position is:
    • 2 points better than this time last year (36 vs 34). This is the same as after the last game.
    • 7 points better than the comparable fixtures last year (36 vs 29). This is the same as after the last game
    • 5 points better than the '40 point' line (36 vs 31). This is 2 points better than after the last game.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    EB Hornet likes this.
  19. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    Pasting error there sorry...

    [​IMG]
     
    PowerJugs, Hornet4ever, Sting and 8 others like this.
  20. Sahorn

    Sahorn Reservist

    Liked for the sssssssssssssss....nake


    (As well as ongoing analysis thx David)
     
  21. tonycotonstache

    tonycotonstache Squad Player

    Should have a ladder at the end of the Snakes reign....
     
    Sahorn and folkestone orn like this.
  22. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    there was nearly a snake pit
     
  23. onion8837

    onion8837 Reservist

    Having watched this first half from Arsenal we must have a decent chamce of beating them. They are utterly **** especially at the back
     
  24. wingco

    wingco Reservist

    Noticed we're a goal away from matching the totals from 15/16 and 16/17 seasons.
     
  25. ForzaWatford

    ForzaWatford Squad Player

    People I know in Spain say he's been pretty rubbish at Espanyol this year, Barca aside.
     
  26. RookeryDad

    RookeryDad Squad Player

    People I know in SW London have just looked at the table & see Espanyol are comfortable 13th, every chance of top half.

    Not saying you, Forza, but it does puzzle me when supporters of Watford type clubs expect Europa League qualification playing 4-2-4.

    For any team in any of the top 5 European leagues which is not a natural Europe contender, staying up is mission accomplished.

    Top half is fantastic.

    And playing football worth watching, well, bliss it was in that dawn to be alive.

    I seem to be channeling Craig Shakespeare, who was pretty rubbish.
     
  27. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    The current position is:
    • 1 point worse than this time last year (36 vs 37). This is the same as after the last game.
    • 4 points better than the comparable fixtures last year (36 vs 32). This is the same as after the last game
    • 3 points better than the '40 point' line (36 vs 33). This is 1 points worse than after the last game.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    PowerJugs likes this.
  28. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    I'd love to know what Joker's demands were. Some say Gino made him an imsultingly low offer to get rid of him as he thought he could get someone better.

    In my view Joker was the best and most entertaining coach we've had (given that Zola lost it big time).The danger is that always looking for someone better might eventually lead Gino to recruit somebody who really flops and takes us down
     
    KelsoOrn likes this.
  29. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    Have to say I agree with this. Wish we had any idea of what was asked for and what was offered.
     
  30. NemoNemo

    NemoNemo Reservist

    I heard Joka wanted a pay rise to £2m but Gino only offered a small raise which was below £1m. Gino didn’t think Joka was a big enough name to attract players to help us stay in the prem so was very stubborn and didn’t do anything to make Joka feel wanted and in the end opted for QSF who had made a name for himself by winning the EL
     
  31. miked2006

    miked2006 Premiership Prediction League Proprietor

    Quite obviously Joka was let go. He was offered demands he would not take, but was happy to then take a role with Fulham in the Championship. It’s not hard to see what went on there.

    Gino technically never sacks managers. There is always an excuse for why it was a “mutual decision”. I’d bet that it almost never is.

    Gino’s wanted to get rid of every manager we’ve had, and therefore has done so. It’s as simple as that.
     
  32. Derbyhorn

    Derbyhorn Academy Graduate

    Slavisa was offered a wage of £1m but countered with what he thought was an opening bid of £2.5m. Trouble was that Gino's was a take it or leave it offer and he took Slav's response at face value and didn't bother coming back with an increased offer.

    It's quite likely that Gino already had QSF in mind as a bigger name that would attract better players but thought it worth trying to get Slav at bargain rates, although having said that I don't recall ever seeing QSF's wage rumoured in the public domain so for all we know he could have taken the job for £1m (or even less given the reputation Gino has for negotiating deals).

    http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/9892260/slavisa-jokanovic-explains-watford-exit
     
  33. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    The current position is:
    • 3 points worse than this time last year (37 vs 40). This is 2 points worse than after the last game.
    • 4 points better than the comparable fixtures last year (37 vs 33). This is the same as after the last game
    • 3 points better than the '40 point' line (37 vs 34). This is the same as after the last game
    [​IMG][​IMG][/URL]
     
  34. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

  35. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Squad Player

    Not sure on the ins and outs of it, but I'm guessing if it's in any way mutual than no compo is due?
     

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