[NOT HAPPENING] Players In Limbo

Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by The Recluse, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. The Recluse

    The Recluse Academy Graduate

    Still a little time in some of the European leagues but there seem to be a few players who'll be sitting on their hands once all the transfer windows have shut.

    Daniel Bachmann
    Pontus Dahlberg

    One of these had to go out on loan, surely?

    Kiko Femenia
    Dimitri Foulquier
    Daryl Janmaat

    We don't need 3 right backs.

    Sebastian Prodl
    One centre back too many.

    Marvin Zeegelaar
    3rd choice left back.

    Tom Dele-Bashiru
    He'll not get a game this season unless there's a major injury crisis.

    Filip Stuparevic
    Doubt if he even qualifies to play.

    Harry Forster
    Ryan Cassidy

    Forster has disappeared since being with the 1st team in Austria, Cassidy - is he still at the club?
  2. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I think the fact that Femenia can play both sides (badly at present) and so can Foulquier, that they are both likely to be wanted to stay anyway.

    The rest should all have been moved on either permanently or on loan by now. Not really a great effort to move players on. The situation with the GK’s is just baffling. Dahlberg likely to go 2 years without a minute of senior football. Quite why we have a supposedly good reputation as a club to nurture talent, I’ve no idea. It’s patently no better than other clubs and I’d go as far as saying it’s worse than most others in the PL.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  3. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    It is a bit strange to still have FOUR goal keepers on the books. Dahlberg and Bachmann need to be playing first team football. Ok, you need to retain one of them, but not both.

    Foulquier seems to have been given the nod from Gracia, so is going to be a part of things this season, but three choices for the right back position is top heavy.

    Prodl was a silly mistake to offer a 4 year deal last season, and now they have to live with it. No one wants to sign him on the wages he's getting here. But if we're going to play three at the back, having 5 CB's is not too many. We do need cover.

    Zeegelaar is the other one. Why is he still with us? I thought Udinese would have taken him. He seemed to like it there and they rate him. He's nowhere near the first team with us.

    Lots of questions, but at least we do have a full quota of players. Everyone can be registered to play this season.

    I'm a bit disappointed they don't use Penaranda more. He's clearly got talent, but is inconsistent. I would see him as an exciting option from the bench, but the club think differently.

    So this is our entire squad, now all windows have closed.

    Foster, Gomes, Bachmann, Dahlberg
    LB -
    Holebas, Masina, Zeegelaar CB Cathcart, Dawson, Kabasele, Mariappa, Prodl RB - Janmaat, Femenia, Foulquier
    Doucoure, Capoue, Chalobah, Dele-Bashiru, Quina, Cleverley, Hughes, Pereyra
    Deulofeu, Gray, Deeney, Welbeck, Sarr

    Home Grown 11
    Non-HG 14
    U23 4

    29 eligible players.
  4. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I shudder every time our defenders are listed like this. Our squad is so unbalanced in terms of quality.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  5. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I have to agree. After 5 seasons in the Premier League and NINE transfer windows, we've still got a Championship defence.

    If we sent out a memo to all Premier League clubs saying you can take any of our defenders for free, how much interest would there be? Maybe Cathcart, Dawson, Janmaat and Kiko could find clubs as squad back ups, but none of those clubs would be mid-table or above. I doubt anyone would want any of our defenders in all honesty.

    This has been a major failing by the club and now it may cost us a place in the Premier League. The rest of our squad looks good. It has a nice balance of experience, quality, and youth, but why oh why has the defence been so underinvested and neglected.
  6. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Has it been under-invested or just poorly invested?

    I think the top 4 most expensive defenders in your squad list above are: Janmaat (£7m), Kabasele (£5.8m), Dawson (£5.5m), Masina (£4m). That looks a fair back 4 on paper and the fees aren't cheap. But the individuals just haven't been consistently good enough.
  7. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    Bad choices have been made, but the general message seems to have been get players in as cheaply as you can for the defence. To be fair, we've done well with that in midfield. I don't think we've spent a vast amount on midfielders, but they were quality players in the first place. In defence we've gone for journeymen bargains in the main.

    We've not signed anyone of quality, not once. All other areas of the pitch we've signed at least one quality player, with pedigree or real potential. Deulofeu (£11.5m), Welbeck (free), Pereyra (£14m), Capoue (£6m), Hughes (£7m), Quina (£1m), Dele-Bashiru (£220k), Sarr (£30m), Chalobah (£5m) etc. None of these players are defenders though. The spending has been higher in these areas. Only Janmaat has cost a decent fee, but you can still get quality without spending a fortune, as we've proved in other areas of the squad.

    I would say forwards and midfielders would be the hardest position to get quality in, but we've been successful in this. Defence should be the easiest, but we've overlooked it and not taken it too seriously.
  8. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Those fees are relatively cheap in comparison to the PL market average I’d guess. So I think it’s a mixture of under-investment and poor recruitment.

    I doubt the blame for that can be placed at any one person’s door. I think it’s a mixture of under-funding from Gino, poor talent scouting from Giraldi and not a strong enough voicing of opinion from successive head coaches. A perfect storm really and each factor could have mitigating circumstances. Gino could say he doesn’t have the money, Giraldi could say he’s never been asked to identify quality starting defenders and the head coach could say he doesn’t get a chance to have a loud enough opinion. Or simply isn’t listened to.

    I think it’s a mixture of all these things. And every season of survival gives them the opportunity to say its good enough, without realising it’s a factor that holds us back from being better. I’m beginning to worry that only relegation would make them realise - and then they’d hold the belief that the defender we have are good enough for the Championship.

    I really am beyond guessing what the wake-up call would be.
    folkestone orn likes this.
  9. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Not sure why the Pozzo's would stick around if we were relegated. Probably sell the club like Granada.
  10. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    They might, but of course they would then be selling the club just at the moment the valuation dropped through the floor as compared to the valuation today.
  11. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Fairly certain they’d stick around for a year to try and go straight back up. If we didn’t though, I’m sure they’d be wary of us becoming a permanent Championship fixture and might look to sell then.
  12. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    Anything is possible. But Granada were sold I guess because it was a bit of an arm's length Pozzo club, their associate seemed to be attracting unwanted attention from the authorities and the money in La Liga didn't compare to the takings in the Premier League. I've no idea if the Pozzos would hang around if we settled back into the Championship long term. But I reckon they'd have a good crack at coming back up again. It took 3 years for them to figure it out last time. Would probably take the same again to build a squad capable of getting out of that league.
  13. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    I don't think they'd sell if we were relegated. It would be the worst time to sell a club from a business point-of-view. The club will have a lower valuation, even with guaranteed parachute payments and they are not in it to lose money.

    Could we go down? yes, in fact I think it's likely this season, but not a forgone conclusion at this stage of course.
  14. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    When it's your money, that sounds like a lot, but look at it in footballing terms - how much have we paid out over the same period on midfielders, wingers and forwards? Taking into account that forwards are generally more expensive, 13.5m for Success, 13 million ish for Pereyra, 12m for Deolefeou, 18m for Gray, 12.5m for Jao Pedro, 35m for Sarr etc.

    It's chickenfeed that we've spent on the defence and even then, having not managed to buy smart (I'm sure you can pick up a decent centre back for £5.5m if you are lucky, but we were not) we've never gone back and looked at replacing our duds with better players.

    Let's look at our actual starters - Holebas 3m, Kiko - 0, Dawson 5.5m, Cathcart - 0, Foster - 0.

    We're frequently fielding a defence which is on budget for a bottom half championship side, assembled over 4 years. It's a ******* disgrace and it deserves to be humbled the way it has been, in league and cup finals.

    You can get away with the odd bargain (Foster, by and large has done well and Kiko, despite recent criticism, is perfectly adequate as a squad player) but in reality, none of our defenders deserve to be first choice at a Premier League club, let alone a club with ambitions of finishing in the top half.

    I can only assume Gino is stubborn in his refusal to invest in this area, because every single fan can see that the failure has and will continue to cost us dearly, but we consistently fail to address this weakness when presented with a new transfer window.
    Klein Lust, Pob and Jumbolina like this.
  15. Happy bunny

    Happy bunny Cheered up a bit

    If the forgotten men want to play football more than they want to earn Prem wages, they could always get their contracts cancelled by mutual consent.
  16. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Stefano Okaka cost us £8m. That’s £1m more than any defender has ever cost us. And we’ve just let him go for a fee which nobody even knows - likely free or something very nominal.

    Puts in perspective just how little investment goes into the defence comparatively with other positions.
  17. Stuey

    Stuey Reservist

    Spot on
    hornetboy1 likes this.
  18. Ágætis Byrjun

    Ágætis Byrjun Reservist

    Foulquier and Zeegelaar registered then. Can't be worse than having Kiko at left back.
    wfcmoog likes this.
  19. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    13.5m for Success? Say it ain’t so.
  20. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Ffs Aidy stick Ziggler on!!!!
  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    The biggest signal we can give to show we are awful at getting rid of deadwood, useless at identifying quality defenders and love dishing out stupidly long contracts?

    Giving Marvin ****ing Zeegelaar a squad number.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  22. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse Strangeland

    Guys, it’s fine, it doesn’t matter that two highly promising goalkeepers are having their careers ruined. Gomes does his overly rehearsed celebration whenever we score (not often in fairness) and keeps them out of the team. He deserved to play in the cup final. It’s fine.

    Dahlberg and Bachmann should be thanking their lucky stars they’re being kept out of contention by such a superstar.
  23. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Their progress is being stunted, sure. And I don’t think there’s a fan who thinks Gomes should be No.2 - but saying their careers are being ruined is a bit much! They are both young as GK’s don’t peak until much later. There aren’t many clubs where they’d get a lot of games right now.

    Bachmann was supposedly very good last season - but we should bare in mind that it was the SPL and Kilmarnock. Quite why the club haven’t loaned either he or Dahlberg out is strange but maybe their were no suitable takers. Maybe the plan is that they will get games later in the season.

    For all the criticism of Gomes, he’s always been respectful to the club and fans. If he feels he’s not up to it, I’m sure he would tell Gracia. I’m fairly certain this will be his last season and the other two will be brought through.

    We could definitely be doing more to integrate them and I think it’s odd that we haven’t though.
    PowerJugs likes this.
  24. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Speaking for myself, I have no idea if Gomes should be No.2, because I haven't seen the other two play. You have to ask yourself: if Foster was injured, who would you want in the first team? We know Gomes will be OK, but maybe one of the others would be better. Would you take the risk? Remember when Karnesis came on at Everton after Gomes was injured the first thing he did was make a big error of judgement which effectively lost us the game. And he was a more experienced keeper.
    This is why, without doubt, Bachmann or Dahlberg should have played in the recent cup game so that they could be assessed in a first team environment.
  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    It seems a crazy decision to have them not playing at all at this stage in the career. Not sure what the thinking was but it seems to have been flawed. Dahlberg in particular must be seriously regretting signing.
    wfcwarehouse likes this.
  26. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    We should have a decent reserve keeper to apply pressure to Foster. Instead we have 3 back up keepers, none of whom can inspire confidence either due to increasing age or lack of experience/recent game time. Crazy.
  27. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I guess GK loan signings are quite rare. A lot of clubs like to sign a GK to make them No.1 and put time into them. I’d be surprised if there was a queue of clubs lining up to sign a GK knowing they’d only have them for a season and then have to start the cycle again.

    Bachmann didn’t start as No.1 at Kilmarnock, he was sub. He just got in due to injury and didn’t look back.

    I’m not saying moves can’t be found, especially with the contacts we supposedly have. But I’m just giving another train of thought to things. Undoubtedly one should have gone out on loan (if the opportunity was there for the club to do so).

    In terms of Dahlberg, it might even have been worth allowing someone to loan him for 2yrs - with Watford having a clause that we can recall him after one.
  28. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Dahlberg was playing regularly for Gothenburg. Now he will lose 2 seasons by not playing. What is the point in buying a player like that and then just sit him in the reserves ? What was the plan to develop him ? Seems crazy from both club and player POV.
    Steve Leo Beleck and Jumbolina like this.
  29. magyarorszag

    magyarorszag Squad Player

    Bachman was only brought in as GK cover because he counts as homegrown, hes not necessarily one for the future. Dahlberg however should have a year or two in league 1 behind him by now
    folkestone orn likes this.
  30. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth Squad Player

    Yes Bachman is different as he was released by Stoke and doesn't have the same track record as Dahlberg who was signed as a promising international keeper.
  31. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse Strangeland

    Absolutely. Gone from number one at his previous club and in the international reckoning to not even warming the bench.
    Jumbolina likes this.
  32. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    So this is our fifth year in the Premier League and how well have we done in building this team up?

    Ok, clearly we're better than the side that got us promoted, but have we really evolved as a Premier League side?

    I think we've done well in building the side, but right now it seems we've hit a wall and we're holding on to average players for too long.

    I think the following players have served a purpose, some more than others, but shouldn't really still be at the club right now. We should have let them go and upgraded.
    Gomes, Holebas, Masina, Zeegelaar, Mariappa, Prodl, Janmaat, Femenia, Kabasele, Foulquier. Dawson looks like a deadwood signing also.

    If you look at the names, basically it's the entire defence. Ok, I'd keep a few of them as squad players, but I'd say we need a first team left back, right back and two central defenders. It's a tall order, but we are retaining Championship standard defenders and it's creating havoc in the progress of the side. Looking at where we are in the table, it could even cost us our Premier League position this season.

    Jae-Min could sign in January, and we were in for Rose, who we all know would have been an upgrade on Holebas/Masina.

    As squad players, I'd be happy to retain Mapps, Janmaat or Kiko. I didn't include Cathcart as I think he has still something to offer, but he's been off the pace this season. I only really see him as a good squad player these days.

    I would sell or retire Gomes, Holebas, Masina, Zeegelaar, Prodl, Kabasele and Foulquier. Loaned out players like Sinclair, Navarro and Sema we don't need either. That's 10 players, and one of two we may get a bit of money for, but the saving on salaries would be quite big. Not sure why we're keen on holding onto players who just don't really cut it at Premier League level anymore.
  33. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    I would probably keep Masina even if we signed another left back. I don't really understand the offering 5 year contracts to players approaching 30 or above as that leaves us with a lot of these guys who are clearly not good enough. I was shocked how poor Holebas looked vs West Ham so left back is a priority especially if the Chinese chap is arriving in Jan. We won't get Rose as he is in Spurs first team now. I'm not sure the centre backs are helped by the cover that is given them by the full backs which isn't something that requires new players, just the current players to concentrate on their jobs properly. Kabasele should play currently as he offers some pace and then either of the Craigs. I'm not sure why Zeegelaar or Prodl are still here. We might as well have just paid up their contract and let them go
  34. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I’ll probably be in the minority, but I would welcome finally giving Masina a run of games in place of Holebas.

    I think most accept that the 2 Craig’s need splitting up, probably by Kabasele.

    I think it’s almost universally viewed that Femenia needs to come out of the side as well. Probably for Janmaat not I wouldn’t be against seeing what Foulquier can do.

    I don’t think we should be continuing with 3 CB’s. It’s just over-compensating because none of them are good enough but it detracts from being able to have wingers - thus hampering using Sarr.

    Quite how it’s not glaringly obvious to Gracia that we should play 4-2-3-1 in attack and 4-3-2-1 in defence, is beyond me.
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I don't mind 3 centre backs. My comparison between the West Ham and the Newcastle performances is that we looked just as shellshocked in defence every time the opposition broke forward, but vs Newcastle we managed to get out of jail a bit more, simply by having more bodies.

    I think it's something we should keep in our armoury, at least until we sign better defenders (ie. never), as the only thing worse than having poor defenders, is having poor defenders who are outnumbered.

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