[REPORTED] Peñaranda

For the sake of debate why should that be a concern for the English FA?

 

I'm not, I just get fed up with extremely petty arguments.

You ended up with agreeing with me on my initial point. "A WP would of course benefit him by opening up English clubs as potential loan destinations too I believe so a bigger market to aim at."

It is just tiresome.

 

My point is merely that the FA are not particularly interested in the development of any players just the protection of their own vested interests. Their antiquated structure means they achieve little and challenge the league/ EPL/ Uefa etc. Even less. Not saying WFC are the only victims here just that the so called elite just protect their own power and influence. Long-term that is not going to help further the game home or abroad.

 

Shame as he turns out class on fm

But seriously we need to get him on loan to a Spanish side that are actually going to play him this year! See if he make an impact and go from there. Also the Spanish citizenship thing is an interesting one doesn't he need something like 6more months out there before he can be a dual citizen? That would mean we could loan him out Till Jan, all the work permit drama is gone and if he's making an impact in Spain or were really struggling upfront we can bring him back for the latter half of the season and see if he can make the squad.

 

Of course top clubs interfere at international level. Countless times over the years players have been pulled from international duty due to "injury." So the skepticism in me tells me that the same can be done to have an "exceptional" young player brought into the squad if given the right amount (£££) of persuasion. Football is corrupt worldwide so of course backhanders like these happen all the time.

Also of course it favors the top 6 because 3 points of the system is awarded to how much you pay. So clubs that have money to burn don't care about paying over the odds for a non eu player because they know it will help with getting a WP. So owners and clubs like us that have a great scouting system who spot talent and are shrewd with our business get screwed because we didn't pay an astronomical fee for a youngster.

The whole because he plays for Watford so it's not given was tongue and cheek but the principal is the same, the smaller clubs have a harder time getting WP's for non EU talent. If I remember rightly, Pulis and Hughes made the same point not long ago.

The point system is flawed.

Lets take San Marino for example, the international whipping boys. Let's just say that they produce a talent and a Prem team wants to sign him. San Marino are never ever ever ever ever going to be ranked in the top 70 international teams. So that 18/19 year old who has all the ability in the world like Penaranda to one day be an exceptional player, can't live out his dream because of where he was born. Also at 18/19 he wouldn't have played enough international games to qualify in their point system. So again, he can't play in the Prem because of his nationality and experience due to his age.

This is not meant sarcastically, but I'm shocked the PC brigade have not protested this since they are all about equality, human rights, diversity and so on. Why should the FA have restrictions on people when as a country we don't. Imagine the uproar if a Venezuelan was turned away from living here because he didn't qualify on a points system to be here.

There shouldn't even be a point system. It should simply be, this club wants to sign this player because they have scouted him for a year and believe he can make difference to their squad in the next 3 years. If he doesn't play x amount of games by year three he is immediately released from that club so he can find another club. In the meantime the club that didn't play him enough will continue to pay his wages until he finds a new club up to 2 years.

This would prevent teams from snatching players young, ruining their chances of developing and stop teams like Chelsea signing 30/40 youngsters just to send them out on loan for 4 seasons and then toss them away. It forces the club who believed in their talent to play them x amount of games and gives the youngster the assurance that if he is tossed away he will still be paid for up to 2 years until he does find a club. If he sits on his hands collecting a pay check then once the 2 years is up he won't have a club so no-one will want him with that work ethic, so he screws himself.

Sorry for the ramble but it just ticks me off! Haha

 

I honestly question the point of the exceptional talent clauses if a player like Penaranda doesn't qualify. He's pretty much the poster child for the idea: talented young player who is tipped to do very well indeed, but can't currently qualify for a work permit due to his country's low ranking and relative inexperience.

When one of the coaches of our youth world cup winning squad is at Penaranda's hearing giving testimony that he planned specifically to counter that player and he was undoubtedly the best player in the tournament, it rather makes a mockery of the process to see the permit denied.

Regardless, it's unlikely to make much difference in the long run. If we send him back to a Spanish club he'll be a dual national by next season due to 2 years of continuous residence in Spain. It has to be continuous or he'd already qualify for a Spanish passport. Sending him to Italy was a huge error; he'd be in our squad next season if he'd been in Spain for a complete season.

Even if he doesn't get a Spanish passport by next year, I rather suspect he'll be making appearance in the Venezuelan senior side from now on. That should push him over the edge next time we apply.

 

I like the ramble, no need to be sorry. Replying to bits in turn...

I personally don't believe Gabriel would have been picked for 6 World Cup Qualifiers for a country like Brazil because Man City flogged some money in the direction of someone. I'm not saying it's impossible but it seems pretty improbable to me. They're hardly meaningless friendlies and he got a lot of playing time.

You could argue that we were able to manipulate the system too as we bought Penaranda from a sister club. We could have made the price whatever we wanted by moving assets around the background to offset it. However you can't deny that on the whole price paid is a good indicator of a player's ability. So long as it's not the sole factor it's fair to include it, surely?

Your San Marinian can play here because he's in the EU (and probably Italian for immigration purposes). But running with the example anyway why doesn't he go to Serie A and play at least 30% of his teams games (1pt), become worth a reasonable amount of money (2pts) and be worth the club paying him a reasonable wage? (2pts) If he's good enough all of those should be easily achievable in a year or two. In the meantime though why should he be given a chance instead of an English youngster? The strategic aim of the FA and these rules is to improve opportunities for English players to develop and play in the professional leagues. That has to be at the cost of someone and, in this case, it's players from elsewhere. Lots of foreign leagues are even more discerning about who they allow to play from outside the EU. For example I think non-EU is limited to 2 slots in Italy.

"Why should the FA have restrictions on people when as a country we don't. Imagine the uproar if a Venezuelan was turned away from living here because he didn't qualify on a points system to be here" - I don't get this bit. A Venezuelan can't just rock up and live here. He certainly can't turn up and get a job here unless he meets certain criteria. That's basic immigration law. As a non-EU national he'd be subject to many restrictions and have to apply for a visa. Even then his stay would probably be limited to a handful of years before he's sent home again.

 

No-one has seen him play loads of times, he hasn't played loads of times. He was a promising kid at Grenada but wasn't a regular there and barely played last season. If he can't get a game at udinese or malaga he's not going to be getting in our team. Having a good tournament doesn't change that. How many of the U20 English team are prem regulars ? The UK visa would just be to add to him marketability. I doubt he will ever play for us. He is an investment.

 

He has played 44 times for club and country since joining Watford.

Surely, if he is an investment and getting him a UK Visa improves his marketability, then your statement, "Would be a complete waste of another year of his career to bring him to the UK (unless loaned to lower league)," is obviously incorrect.

 

Yes over 2 years Inc sub appearances and barely any club football.
Nope the statement stands. Getting a UK visa would add to his value in the future but would be mad to bring him over and stick him on the bench. Do you really think he would get time on the pitch for us this season if his visa application had been granted ? He needs a full season playing for one of the mid table teams in Spain to develop. I seriously doubt he will ever play for us. Pozzo need to maximise the value before a sale.

 

How many times have you seen him then? Obviously plenty for you to write him off when the "experts" think otherwise.

Well, I prefer to believe the Club and Simpson. He would not be a signing in the same way as another young lad from overseas, they know him, and believe he will do well here. But I suppose you are perfectly entitled to say they are wrong - as you obviously think you know better.

So, let's leave it there.

 

I generally don't think price is a fair option to put in. Let's say we find a 18 year old Bolivian who we decide to take on because we fully believe he has the potential to one day be star. We're not going to pay that Bolivian club over the odds simply because we don't have the money to do that. Clubs like Man City can whiz money away like it's nothing because they have a billionaire owner who makes sure they stay within FFP. So smaller clubs like us lose out because the big boys splash cash like it's water and we're made to suffer because our fee was not large enough to gain points.

Staying with that example, let's now say a player of equal ability to the Bolivian above, but this player is Brazilian. Now because the Brazilian league is more popular it's easier to justify splashing the cash because he is labeled the next "Ronaldinho." So the FA are in awe and Chelsea spend £25mil on him. WP granted because Brazil are in the top 70, the fee was large enough to qualify for points and because Chelsea are buying, he must be exceptional. Meanwhile there is no difference between him and the Bolivian previously mentioned. However because he was born in a failing football nation, and because his Bolivian club accepted a bid of £5mil from little Watford, he therefore can't be that good. The system is flawed.

The San Marino was a bad example but my point remains the same and you actually proved it in what you wrote. Why should a player who has been scouted endlessly by a Prem team, now have to go and play in a different country to earn the right to come and play in the Prem. He simply shouldn't if the buying club deem him good enough and want to sign him then that should be it.

I get what the FA are trying to do as you pointed out, but they don't follow their own rules. You have teams like Chelsea, Man City etc snatching all the talent up, getting WP approved and then shipping them out never to be seen in the Prem. If the FA want to increase the quality of English players then they should cap the amount of talented foreign youngsters a team can sign in a year.

My point wasn't that immigrants have criteria to meet, my point I was trying to make was imagine if the same criteria for a football player was the same for someone trying to live in England.

So sorry you can't live here because you are not exceptional.
So sorry you can't live here because you are not from a top 70 country in the world.
So sorry you can't live here because someone didn't pay us enough for your visa paperwork.

And you get my point.

So what I was trying to say was imagine the uproar if we did treat people like that trying to live in England. So we wouldn't do that to ordinary people, so why are the FA allowed to do it when in the world outside of football it would be considered prejudice, racist, discrimination and Venezuelanphobia or *insertcountry*phobia.

 

You're missing the point. I dont think for a minute that Gino et al were thinking he would be on the pitch for us next season. Getting a visa is just to increase options and his value. Great prospect, worth £millions but can't get in Malaga or udinese teams yet so needs games. HE WILL NEVER PLAY FOR US.

 

Good reply but I can't agree with it all.

The FA would say they'd rather we spent our money developing an 18yo English player rather than signing an 18yo Bolivian. I don't really see Man City throwing away money for the sake of it either. If a player is worth £5m I expect that's what they'll pay. And to get the 2pts the fee only needs to be over 50% of the full range spent in the last two windows. That's not a desperately high hurdle.

In your Chelsea example the WP wouldn't be 'granted because Brazil are in the top 70' as international appearances don't feature in the exceptional player criteria.

Your San Marinian doesn't have to play in a different country. He could play in the country of his birth for a start (Italy). Why the rush to come here? The same applies to a player of any nationality.

I honestly don't think "teams like Chelsea, Man City etc snatching all the talent up, getting WP approved and then shipping them out never to be seen in the Prem". The vast majority of their youth players are either EU nationals (no WP needed) or have been signed to be immediately farmed out to gain EU nationality in a country like Belgium in order to circumvent the strict English WP rules. They're not getting a WP then leaving. In fact there would little point in that approach unless they stay in England.

The wider immigration point is interesting. Firstly you can't be from outside the EU and live here unless you can support yourself (asylum aside). So you need to work. And when it comes to work visas there are categories all over the shop:

https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration/work-visas

Including..."exceptional talent"! And take your 'top 70 countries' and replace it with 'EU, EEA and Commonwealth' nationals and you can see there's similar discrimination there. The UK favours some countries over others. I think we do do it to ordinary people - every day of the week at every port of entry.

What I do agree with you on is that the FA should probably just put in a blanket restriction on foreign signings and be done with it. And they need to do more about the youth player farming that the biggest clubs get away with.

 

You do raise some good points and I think we could go back and forth on this all day. I guess the skeptic in me thinks more negatively on the manner which is why I hold the stance that I do haha. Probably also has to do with the countless times people in FIFA, UEFA and the FA over the years have been caught taking backhanders and making things happen once they have received their "bonus." Even Allerdyce getting caught on camera trying to do some dodgy dealing. We only know because he was caught.

"Conspiracy Theory" - How many of the big clubs are doing the same thing but don't get caught because either they pay people off, the FA look the other way because they are the hope of English football or they do it on a yacht somewhere on international waters. I would imagine that this happens way more often than not, we just don't know about it.

 

If FIFA can be rotten to the core any football federation can be, no less the FA

 

Agreed. Good debate. I think it has parallels with the 'fit and proper person' rules. Fans seem to want one thing whereas the authorities have different aims/expectations and, in reality, are constrained by law as to what they can and can't actually do.

 

With his hair the colour it is,can we pretend he is Will's/Edgar's brother Johnny and pretend he's from Derby?

 

On the broader level, I've never understood how work permits are granted to people to drive London buses but denied to young footballers who will be paying income tax on a salary of at least 500k. Hardly likely to be a burden on the state, are they?

 

Because society needs bus drivers more than footballers?

 

I doubt we grant work permits to bus drivers.

 

Agreed most foreign bus drivers are likely to be EU citizens, those who are not are likely to be married to one.

 

You doubt wrongly. The analogy does have foundation as it comes from a TV programme about TfL Stepney (I think) bus depot where the figure that struck me was that there were 23 nationalities working there and the majority of those were not EU citizens. Some of the Africans would have had some residual commonwealth work rights but there were a host of Albanians, Turks and South Americans there too. So, there's the way out of the Penaranda dilemma, PSV training!

 

I think you're making assumptions. They may have come here and claimed asylum, married a British citizen or stayed here long enough to quality for indefinite leave to remain. None of that changes their nationality.

Bus driver employment conditions aside though (!) I suppose the point of work permit rules in general is to have an immigration system which favours giving native people employment opportunities over those from abroad. In which case the football regime is no different to any other.

 

Good idea. Can we not set up Penaranda with some lovely, classy Watford lass?

 

I think she's already taken, unlike the rest of the classy Watford lasses who have been taken far too often.

I'd like to say hello to Mrs Oxhey67 at this point.

What's that dearest? No, that's fine, I'll get my own dinner from now on.

 

In a book I'm reading about football agents the author tells a story about a player in the 90's who wanted to join Aston Villa but would fail the work permit criteria. His agent put him in social circles with lots of lovely English ladies and within 6 months he was married and he got his move. Predictably the marriage lasted less than a year.

 

Bit harsh.

I'm sure some of them have a little intelligence.

 

See,I can't even reply correctly!

 

The work permit thing is a real odd one which I’ve never quite understood, just seen that Everton are signing Henry Onyekuru but will have to loan him to Anderlecht as he doesn’t yet qualify for a work permit because of the relatively low fee roughly £7m. Even though he’s scored 22 goals in Belgium season just gone.

This is just what I read about the deal for him, it could of course be wrong but it does seem bonkers to block these things when clubs are paying millions and also paying the player a fair whack so they will be legitimately working and earning.

 

Apparently we are appealing the decision to not grant him a WP.

 

If i've learnt anything from my thousands of hours on Football Manager this means it'll now be granted.

 

Who does the appeal go to? If the FA are the ones who denied the original application, who is above them to overturn that decison?