News soon on Jokanovic's future

Maybe it was when Gino gave him his big chance to make a name for himself in a decent league, making a decent wedge in the process. Or supporting him with the signings of Layun, Watson and Guedioua. Or (reportedly) offering him potentially £2m for a years work.

Poor guy.

 

He's very clearly been briefed against by sources close to the club. When ever does anyone recall the club previously disclosing the apparent wage demands of it's staff to the media? Do people not feel even a little bit manipulated by these stories?! C'mon folks, there's a saying about having a healthy scepticism of politicians, the church, the police ... and the media.

 

I would say that the very simple fact that we've accommodated a Europa League winning manager into the wage structure, that Slav felt he was above, tells us everything we need to know about Slav's demands.

 

Did you mean to quote my post as I don't connect how you're presumably arguing against the concept of media manipulation by speculating on gossip you've read in the err ... media?

 

I don't think you understood his point.

 

Irrespective of relative worth, that's a terrific argument for retaining the 'continuity candidate'.

 

For me it boils down to this:

If only a £400kish p.a. + £1k p.w. offer was made then that's trying to manipulate the removal of the Joka because Flores was in the frame all along and is the sort of thing that I, Unhappy, blahblahblah etc. wouldn't like.

If however, the very fair £1m p.a. + £1m potential bonuses offer was made and the Joka declined it and even more so, if he did indeed put in a 'demand' for £2.5m p.a. then, despite the Joka's protestations about wanting to stay and enjoying living near London, having spoken to his family, something along the lines of yellowyeller's 'sick of living out of a suitcase' argument took over and he really wasn't too bothered about staying in the end at all.

That's it really except - there is still no announcement!

 

Hard done by? Totally missing the point yet again. It's becoming a habit. But if you're sure the Joka has been well treated I'm sure we should simply accept that pearl of wisdom at face value!

As for the rest, if Flores arrives I'll be right behind him and want him to succeed as much as anyone else. Like you, I would expect him to as well, but yes, it's more of a risk imho. If we do flop under him there will inevitably be a degree of 'should have stuck with what we knew' stuff for you to put up with.

 

Once again what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

It's possible there has been some sort of leak and its possible it's all just media BS. If there has been a leak is it fair to assume it's official and Gino is responsible?

People who may have know the content of the offer either directly or through family conversation: Joka, Joka's wife, Joka's daughter, Joka's agent, Gino, Scott, club HR (whoever that is), Guidolin...

As far as I can see Gino has played with a straight bat over the last 3 years, and when he didn't want a coach (Dyche, McKinley) he came straight out and said it. There is history of being ruthless but I'm not going to knock him for that (one man's ruthlessness is another man's decisiveness) but I don't see any history of unfairness or underhand use of leaks.

 

I believe both sides have been feeding information to friendly pet journalists. My recollection is that the anti-Watford 'derisory offer' stories came first so who did the first briefing?

 

Joka was brought in on a short term deal and no doubt trebled his earnings by doing so, he'll have also got a good bonus for a job well done. What he didn't have was a promise he'd go on to train us in the Premier League and Gino is the man in the position to judge this. GP will have his own opinion on how we should proceed and taking chances isn't him, if keeping Joka would be the bigger risk in his eyes he's gone already regardless of negotiations.

If we flop under Flores it won't be because Joka is the better team coach but because either the players aren't quite good enough or Gino's preferred style doesn't really work as well as he hoped.

Personally I think we underperformed with the players we had last season but you really don't have to agree.

 

What you pay him to stay and what you pay him to go are two different things. Both can be defined in a contract.

I think my views are clear enough now, and I'll try not to post any more on this subject.

 

I agree with that bit.

Throughout our great run in the last part of the season, I would generally say that the impression from fans, post match, was that...

"we did what we had to do"
"a great result"
"battled well to hang on", etc, etc.

All good comments in the context of going for promotion. But we rarely got the following type of comments...

"what a great performance"
"outplayed a good team"
"outstanding all round"
etc, etc

I always felt we could have played better than we did, with the players we had. When Joka first started and he started to get "ok" results, I said that we could only get better over the rest of the season, but although we "managed" the games far better, I don't actually think our performances kept improving as I thought they would/could.

 

Boro at home was a complete performance but we did have to rely on several moments of individual brilliance during the run in. Mostly from Ighalo and Gomes.

 

I hear you guys saying this 'could have done better' stuff now. Just don't remember it being said a month ago!

The 'we should have stuck with what we knew' criticisms if it goes pear-shaped next season won't just come from me and the others on this thread who defended the Joka. There'll be a barrage of it from all and sundry 'wise-after-the-eventers' who will say we'd have been better off sticking with the Joka. No-one will know whether that's right or wrong but Gino makes his own decisions and will withstand that criticism.

That's the way it works on here though. There are those that judge our entire season on the shoutbox on whichever end the last goal went in at and on the post-match thread on whatever the last result was.

Ltc68 makes the excellent point that the real 'evidence' we have is that Gino doesn't do manipulation with head coaches, rather decisiveness and ruthlessness. And if the £1m .... offer was made at any time of the proceedings then he won't have been manipulative this time either. The Joka will have walked which is simply sad.

 

There really won't ... most of us know we'll have a better chance with Flores but of course if Joka went on to take (say) Sunderland to a CL spot then we could possibly say we were wrong.

 

If this is directed at me, then I think you are mistaken. I have been consistently saying we were good enough for top two all season and I barely wavered with my support of Joka. But, time and time again, after securing three points my first post was something like "great result", not "great performance" Our objective over the past few months was to get promotion, absolutely nothing more than that. That means that to criticise overall mediocre performances (in a Meldrew sort of fashion) would be churlish if we still got three points.

But, if we are not to remain as a regular relegation threatened side in future seasons we have to do more than try and do "just enough". We will have to play to our ability far more often and that is a totally different ball game... and we should be continually looking to improve our ability. Just like any enterprise, we should always be making changes if we think it will improve on what we have. Yes, mistakes will be made, but I cannot see how we can look back and suggest we should have stayed with "what we know" as we don't really know anything about how we/Joka will perform in the Premier League - it would be a false argument.

 

I think you're simply speaking for yourself there GF. Despite our occasional differences, you are one of the wiser old heads on this forum. There will be any number of young 'knee-jerkers' (don't mean to be rude) who will do exactly as I've suggested. Flores will be blamed for our performances and Gino will be blamed for bringing him here.

 

Not if Joka doesn't do anything spectacular ... we'd have nothing to compare Flores with. And no one (OK very few people) was clamoring to get Dyche back.

You seem certain Joka would be a success in the PL, I'll stick my neck out and say the offers will dry up once they've delved deeper.

 

No ZZT. My post wasn't specifically directed at you nor was it particularly a criticism at all. Rather an observation and specifically to contrast the general 'take him or leave him' attitude towards the Joka on this and its associated thread as opposed to the hailing of the new messiah a month ago. Not that posters maybe weren't critical of specific performances leading up to our promotion. Surely you must recognise that change in mood. And there were two other posts in quick succession saying pretty much the same as you and that was what collectively prompted my post. I notice the other two have given you a 'like'. So have I!

My comment to GF about being a 'wise old head' applies equally to you (and maybe to WatfordTalk too for all I know) despite our political differences. And one thing I would never accuse you of is inconsistency! There's a sense of perspective that comes from not just having 'more miles on the clock' but also from remembering when supporting WFC carried a whole lot less grounds for optimism than it does now. We get that we're fighting well above our weight already. The 'young Turks' are likely to be a whole lot less patient. But I certainly won't be joining any anti-Pozzo agenda campaign if it goes wrong. Just the odd 'well, we could have kept the Joka' aside maybe.

Sure, we need to 'speculate to accumulate' to move forward and, given our setup, we have to speculate less financially than most. Burnley are another club that's fought above their weight recently but fell out of the top flight twice at the first time of asking since we were last there because they perhaps didn't speculate enough. I hear a lot about that seeing as my best mate in this city's a Claret! So we don't want to be like them! We need to improve the squad (already started with Prodl - excellent news) and continue to improve the infrastructure. I agree our ambition is now to establish ourselves in the EPL and maybe even go beyond that and challenge to get into Europe. But I still contend that when it comes to the head coach role, then the incumbent had already shown enough evidence of being the man to take us there unless he priced himself out of the market (which, admittedly, he may have done).

 

Again you're only speaking for yourself. The reasoned senior poster! Ha! Of course their wasn't a clamour to get Sean Dyche back. I seem to remember Gianfranco doing rather well on his arrival.

I have no certainty around anything. Just a more of it's a better what you know attitude ...

 

13/14 Dyche did a little bit better ... and no one was calling Zola a mistake.

As I said your numbers are limited to three on here and you've just confirmed it's your fear of the unknown that motivates you. The moans about Jokanovic's treatment were a side show but you just won't admit it.

 

People have short memories of a few years back and the goings on before the Current owners took over, believe me whatever happens in the next few seasons we are and will be a lot better off than had a certain Mr Bansini (or however he now decides to tell the judge to spell his name) was still in charge.

Gino hasn't made many mistakes to get us where we are, long long may it continue!

 

Yawn. I simply contend that the Joka is a better bet than Flores and continue to do so. I've never bothered about being outnumbered nor been feart of the unknown. Voted for Scottish independence remember! You simply have to make a better argument GF. You're not.

Edit: So what negativety do you think might surround the Joka if others were to 'delve deeper' then? Does he have skeletons in his cupboard?

 

My argument that Flores has a better pedigree, that's top tier experience in a tough league and a Euro cup to boot - doesn't count then? That he will be more suited to setting up against top level opposition and be more tuned in to the Ideals of our owner means nothing? ... Against what? Because after eight months jokanavic is used to 'English' football? Well I have news old bean, no one plays it in the PL anymore, it's a mixture of Continental and Latin with a smattering of Africa ... and of course a smidgeon of Stoke mixed in. Burnley play English football well but it wasn't enough.

 

Of course there's a distinction between the Joka's and Flores' cvs. Flores previous experience counts for a whole lot and is impressive no mistake. The Joka's cv is impressive too if rather different. But I contend that the difference between the two cvs is not as great as you make out and not enough to counter the incumbency factor which is the one thing you consistently refuse to place any value on whatsoever. I am heppy to take everything into account. You are being selective.

Anyway. What are the Joka's skeketons then?

Edit: the 'little bit of Stoke' is interesting. Presumably Stoke play a 'whole lot of Stoke' and look where they ended up this year. I'd be very heppy if we finished similarly next year. I can see that Barca and Stoke play a different style of football. I suspect that your knowledge is similarly limited GF. If reids is about, I'd me happy to listen to him though.

 

Never has so much been written by so many about so little!

 

Ha ha, true. That's because, if we write about nothing, we cant be wrong!

 

I think I understand!

 

None that I know of but that isn't my point.

Incumbency factor!?!! ... he was here seven months, had no preseason had expensive players brought in for him just to stay competitive and let's face it we only scraped over the line by being very good at beating the cannon fodder at the bottom. If our recent performances against Norwich and Bournemouth didn't set alarm bells ringing in your head there's something wrong with you and let's be clear, Norwich have virtually the same team they came down with so a good bead can be drawn as to expected standard.

How the hell am I being selective?

 

Stoke play a hell of a lot less Stoke than they used to!

 

True. But the nature of human nature is that we'll continue to kick it about until there's an announcement. Was that a Churchillian quote b.t.w.? Beaches etc?

 

Mark Hughes has done a brilliant job there.

 

Yes it was a Battle of Britain homage I suppose!

I was reading this thread whilst trying to save a young starling from the murderous jaws of Ford Dante Dangerous. Fortunately FDD got too cocky on this occasion and the bird got away. I feel the same nausea as I did when we lost to Palace,but at least today it is birds 1 cats 0! Ford got a whack from Arthur too which made him even more undergruntled as we say in WGC!

 

Are you getting a bit wound up GF? That's supposed to be my forte!

In case you missed it, our two most recent results against Bournemouth and Norwich were somewhat compromised by two appalling refereeing decisions.

I accept that the Joka's and Flores' cvs are rather different but contend that, the one who answers the question posed, in whatever environment, is the Joka. With us too. Vialli came with a good pedigree on the continent. Look what happened.