Moral Maze Question - CV Honesty?

I'm in the process of (another) change of career. I've had enough of office work. I don't want to be an office lad anymore. My latest list of duties included 'making tea and coffee for visitors'. I work in a corrugated iron box within a scruffy grey industrial estate. But only for the moment. I have officially "thrown my apron on the floor" and told them I'm off at the end of the month.

I thought with low unemployment it'd be easy to get a new job, but so far I have to confess I have not had so much as a sniff and I've been trying very hard.

I've had loads of no responses, one waste of time resulting in 'not selected for interview' rejection (care job), one straight 'not selected for interview' (hospital ward clerk) and one precious date for an interview (hospital porter) - but even that's not until the 18th of the month.

The list of rejections and silences is getting alarmingly long. Some of the rejections are startling considering I've got a degree, speak two languages fluently, have a PTLLS FE teaching qualification, have loads of experience in lots of industries and am very willing. I'll take anything. If there's nails to be banged, I'll bang nails. I've even been rejected without interview for a job to be an assistant to a hedge cutting man - collecting up the cuttings and that. I can't understand it. Who are they getting who's more qualified?

The only thing I haven't applied for is cleaning. I've done it before at the secondary school and I'll do it again if nothing else comes up, but I don't want to do cleaning anymore. They put stuff in the toilet bowls y'know. And you have to put on yer marigolds and fish it out. Plus as well it's hard work physically when you're past 50. I hope I don't have to go cleaning again.

I can't work out why I keep getting rejected and unless they object to my age, the only thing I can think of is that it's that most foolish of reasons: overqualified.

So I propose lying on my CV, but only through omission. Don't mention the degree and the diplomas, nor the languages. Just put my couple of GCEs on there. Downplay my past jobs and reduce the roles down to the most simple. 'Team Member' and such.

Cif is dead against it and thinks it's their stupid problem if they won't accept me. I can see her point, but I'm very interested to at least give it a go to see whether I have any more success.

But is it moral do you think?

 

Clive, I hope things work out pronto for you.

My suggestion is to let pragmatism rule the day.

The interview process is a series of hurdles.

Think of yourself as David Hemery (or Alberto Juantorena except in a hurdles race).

All you need to do is clear the next hurdle.

To do this, give ‘em what they want. Editing what people perceive of us is what everyone does. We all are highly selective in every interaction we make.

Once you have landed the job offer, then you are in a position to make effective moral judgments.

Btw, not surprised you’re leaving if they made you wear an apron.

Masonic set up?

 

They probably think you’ve made all the qualifications/experience up.

 

I don’t think there is anything wrong with omitting degrees or language skills that you have.

I also think omitting jobs is fine, but you just have to be prepared to answers any questions as to why there are ‘gaps’ between certain jobs.

Good luck!

 

Lie about your age. Put 40 and blame it on a typo if they ever pull you up on it.

 

You are overqualified and they think you will leave a soon as something else comes up, which is probably true.

Why not go for something that pays more? It sounds like your are purposefully underselling yourself. If you go for things more in line with your experiences and age, the recruiter will think you will be motivated to do well, that you have ambition (for the company) and that you won't be looking to leave straight away.

I have held interviews and hired people for the first time this summer. The guy who we thought was overqualified but hired anyway left within a month when he found a better job, wasting all of our time.

They think you should be looking higher, imo

 

Edit your CV based on the job role you are going for. Experience in past similar roles is always good but not always essential. Plus don’t put all your past jobs if you’ve had loads, only put the ones more relevant to the role ur going for. You can lie a bit here on the work timeline, just make sure the last job you had is correct.

Other than that, depending on the type of new role you want, approach recruitment companies and join LinkedIn. Recruitment companies get around £2000 if they get you a job so it’s worth it for them, especially if you are well qualified as you seem to be.

 

My CV is a greater work of fiction than the Lord of the Rings

 

It's a no brainer to tailor your cv to each application.

If I were looking for a hedge cutter assistant I'd want to know about how fit you are, how you love the outdoors, love gardening, have done lots of physical jobs, are a people person etc. Your degrees and languages add zero to the conversation.

And no its not lying.

 

Tailor making CV for each application the way forward. I found job hunting hugely frustrating and had to dumb down my CV and take my age off. Sadly I think many employers are ageist.

 

You think? It's an absolute fact of life. Take your age out of your CV Clive and make it the first thing you do.

 

Your age is irrelevant anyway if you are the best person for the job, so to avoid recruiters’ conscious or unconscious bias leave it off. And the fact you went to school in 1922.

 

@Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, not being funny, but have you ever thought of working for "The Man"? They're always on the lookout for "bright" people who've, ahem, "been around the block" and can tell **** from shinola? Pay/conditions in the early days aren't "great" but once the grown-ups see you're not a fool...

 

How's that job as a paper boy going?

 

Not only irrelevant but a factor which should not lawfully be considered, as a consequence of the Equality Act 2010.

 

Shouldn't be, but absolutely is!

I've complained about two adverts which have unashamedly included "young" in the description of the person they're looking for. I've had to point out that it's not only foolish on their part, but also illegal. Hasn't helped me get the job though. I think I will have to narrow the job history down a bit. Leave out the ones from the 1970s.

Interesting that @Guy had to dumb his CV down also. The problem with applying for jobs more in line with my qualifications and experience is that they're all in offices on industrial estates and that's what I'm trying to escape. I'm deliberately avoiding the 'administrator' type jobs for that reason, even though they do pay a few bob more.


@Bwood_Horn Not sure I'd be too good at working for the Border Force compadre. I'd let anyone in. Thanks for the idea though.

 

Report the feckers to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Clive!

 

But what would you do if a Cuban living in Miami turned up at Heathrow?

 

I think you know full well what I'd do.

Hands up against the wall, spread 'em and prepare for a full, comprehensive and rigorous cavity search before being returned on the next plane back.

A zero tolerance approach. We don't want foreign criminals coming into the country.

 

I

This. I think Clive is so entrenched in being a man of the people he wouldn't take a non-entry level job.

What's your degree in Clive? What two languages? I'm sure there's a few interesting j jobs for your Russian skills.

 

Degree is an Open University one - maths and computing.

Two languages are English and Spanish fluently. Some French and a little Turkish too.

I know the Russian cyrillic alphabet OK, but can't really speak it apart from a couple of words.

 

E="Clive_ofthe_Kremlin, post: 2671910, member: 5210"]Shouldn't be, but absolutely is!

I've complained about two adverts which have unashamedly included "young" in the description of the person they're looking for. I've had to point out that it's not only foolish on their part, but also illegal. Hasn't helped me get the job though. I think I will have to narrow the job history down a bit. Leave out the ones from the 1970s.

Interesting that @Guy had to dumb his CV down also. The problem with applying for jobs more in line with my qualifications and experience is that they're all in offices on industrial estates and that's what I'm trying to escape. I'm deliberately avoiding the 'administrator' type jobs for that reason, even though they do pay a few bob more.


@Bwood_Horn Not sure I'd be too good at working for the Border Force compadre. I'd let anyone in. Thanks for the idea though.[/QUOTE]
I do sympathise becsuse I've been in this predicament. I have a degree and am a chartered surveyor but found it impossible to return to after 12 yrs working overseas in travel. Tried applying for admin jobs, not even a sniff. Interesting one job I did have interview for I had physcometric test, interviewer said exactly what looking for and promised feedback next day....never did hear back and suspect he felt intimidated by my experience and maturity and preferred to offer position to someone mouldable and easier to manage.
Got UK based position in travel now bud advice from job centre and agencies was to create 2 separate CV,s 1 without age and summer down and one more high brow for more experienced based roles.
Anyhow wish you luck

 

If Heinz ever do a Cyrillic alphabet spaghetti, then your CV will go straight to the top of the pile.

 

No word of a lie, for my first proper job working in a bank my manager who recruited me told me later on down the line that she picked my application form out because she liked my signature.

She probably had 40 or 50 application forms, and was never going to read them all. She just flicked through them and picked a few that stood out.

CVs are no different, do you really think recruiters sit down and read them from start to finish? For some jobs they’ll have so many they’ll just get a cursory glance.

So as time consuming as it may be, rather than having one CV you fire off at random you need to tailor every CV specifically for each job you are going for. If anything shorter is better so omitting stuff is no issue and an ideal world you want to tweak your CV as much as possible to add key words from the specific job advert you’re applying for. I’d its not relevant don’t worry about it. The key is to win an interview in the first place and your CV will do this for you. Any gaps that get questioned can easily be covered face to face.

This way when the recruiter gives your CV a brief glance amongst 50 other Cvs yours will catch their eye.

 

Some good advice above. Tell them why you're perfectly qualified for the job they're offering and why you're keen to do it, and tell them as little as possible about how well you're qualified to do other jobs which they're not offering, i.e. tell them you've done a lot of travelling if you need to explain a long gap, not that you've taught aspiring revolutionaries in Spanish.

The key is to get an interview. One of my sons had great difficulty getting a job to support himself while doing his PhD until the penny dropped and he left out all his academic qualifications. Then he was offered the first two jobs he applied for.

Good luck!

 

Thanks! I've got my CV down to a single page and included a photo at the top to try to stand out a bit. I've also been trying to edit my CV to mould as much as possible to the job I'm applying. It's a nuisance to spend time and effort on it each time though and then just get no response in return. Anyway, I'll keep hammering away I suppose.

Hmmm fascinating this and ties in with what I said. It seems absolutely bizarre, but I'm going to have to chop my CV down and leave my qualifications off. What a state of affairs eh?

I reckon you're right too about older people being less mouldable (exploitable?) and perhaps rather less in awe of corporate big cheeses. How annoying though to go through all that palava and then silence. The one I applied for that led me on recently, I wrote them four lengthy emails in total (no response) and eventually went down there. The second in charge lady I saw seemed super-keen. We got on famously, she told me all about the job and wanted to know the earliest I could start. She would send me through more info by email the next day. That never arrived and after another week of ignored email chasing, I got a phone call from the boss saying I was rejected for lack of experience. The advert said prominently in bold type 'NO EXPERIENCE NEEDED! CALL NOW!'. A real waste of time...

 

I think it’s sometimes good to start of from the POV of ‘where would I like to work’? What I am I interested in or feel strongly about or where simply looks good to work at? You can then work how you would fit in, rather than wait for a job to come up randomly, what you would have to do and maybe even which agencies supply their temp staff (often a good way in).

Clive, you wrote more eloquently than 99% of the rest of us, so that’s one skill to think about let alone all the others you have .

 

Thanks for the compliment!

I thought about that fact when I was presented with the new list of duties which, as I said, included performing as a butler to prepare and serve tea and coffee and light snacks to the management and visitors.

These are the same management who send me their important emails for a rewrite and the correction of spelling and addition of punctuation before they send them out. Farcical really. They should be serving me tea.

 

I do find this confusing. You come over as extremely articulate and smart. You have good qualifications in very relevant subjects of computing and maths. You speak other languages. I don't understand why someone wouldn't employ you. But given this I fully understand why you would love to overthrow the outdated capitalist society that we live in. Do you turn up for interview wearing your Che Guevara T-shirt ?
Its probably been said by others but don't use a standard Cv for every job application. Tailor it every time you apply. Assume you will be up against 200 other applicants. Your CV needs to include all the key words (lots of agencies don't read a Cv, they get too many so just do a word search) and experience/personal atributes that means you would be one of the 3-5 they really must talk to, then its over to you in person. In an interview you want to come over as someone they would enjoy working with, esp when the brown stuff hits the fan. Likeable. Safe sense of humour. Smile. Seem excited at the prospect of the role. I've never recruited anyone I didn't like !!! Don't put anything on a CV that you can't talk about in detail in an interview, you don't want to be struggling for recollection. Get the details/examples behind each point crystal clear in your mind before the interview, even if it's complete fabrication ! Try and be relaxed in an interview. I always liken it to a dating experience. If they don't offer it's not because you're cr*p, it's because the fit wasn't quite right and its far better they didn't offer than they offer and then you don't fit in.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling to understand why I keep on getting rejections. Everywhere I've worked has loved me once I've arrived there too. It just seems to be a problem getting in the door in the first place.

I wear a suit to interviews - even when I went for a cleaning job I wore my suit. However the interviews themselves are few and far between.

I've only used the revolutionary thing once in an interview, where I'd been on the dole for a while and they make you apply for jobs whether you want them or not. I'd been made to apply to be a clerk in Gloucester prison and really didn't want the job, but got an interview anyway. A few reminisces with emphasis on particular words on my time spent working for the Central Committee of the COMMUNIST Party of Cuba in REVOLUTION Square, Havana soon cut that interview short.....

 

...mind you if they can trace you back to this forum, you have no chance !
Ageism ? Racism ? Fanatical leftism ?
There is perhaps a risk they feel you are so overqualified you will soon take their job and be difficult to manage ? Surely no-one would be so daft as to appoint Roy Keane as a #2 ? Other than O'Neill !!!

 

Also very good advice, amd I agree that it would be great if you could get a job that utilises your writing skills. But it's easier to get a new job when you've already got one, so I'd explore all avenues in parallel (with different CVs for each, of course)

 

I'm struggling too, Comrade. Every employer just wants someone who has done the same job, at one of their competitors, for a number of years.

I work in sales, but many roles require an honours degree as a prerequisite, which I don't have. Seriously, 3 years at Durham, 20 years ago reading French Literature makes someone better at selling software than me? Despite my 20 year employment history?

I'm trying to move industry but it's very tough. Everyone wants experience within industry.

 

Surely one of your other Forum personas must have a vacancy and be able to employ you ?

 

Oh the farking irony. I doubt very much it's an "employer" but more likely an employment agency whose, ahem, "highly skilled and motivated professionals (sic.)" are little more than bottom of the rung salespeople trawling linked in and CV's for keywords: "I'm sorry Dr Bwood_Orn but the employer's requirements are that you have to have at least 3 B's at 'A' level and you've only got 2 A's and a C, they're inflexible on this..."