I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I think how established a club is does make a difference. It raises expectations, and attracts better players. So, what Southampton achieved under Puel, given those raised expectations and greater opportunity, while objectively “better” than what we did under QSF, does not seem to me to be all that different. Which makes sacking QSF look harsh... ... to an outsider, who takes a casual glance at the league table at the end of the season. Which seems to me exactly what you are doing with Southampton. OK, yes it wasn’t just quality of football, it was also results in QSF’s case. But that was true of Puel too, albeit over a shorter period. They won one of the last eight, and scored just one goal in five home games. Both dismissals objectively seem harsh. Both could be justified by supporters of the club in question (though retrospectively, Southampton fans presumably wonder if they did the right thing). I don’t see much difference.
We wont disagree much though You debate - you do not swear or insult. I do accept Southampton had higher expectations following Pochettino and Koeman. I understand that perhaps Southampton fans expectations were raised so Puel was considered a disappointment. If they are relegated I wonder how many of their fans will wish they had stuck with him boring football and all. Overall QSF did well. But if you take his last five months how could you go into the next season in the belief he knew how to turn things around. Without his great start we would have struggled - would you have gambled on him getting another great start? Any way harsh on QSF or not, I repeat my question - as a Watford fan NOW - would you be happy with finishing 7th / 8th and get to a cup final. That was my point.
Yes. But I think I would have been happy with what Southampton achieved under Puel, although it’s difficult to be sure of that. When you said “We would (take finishing)...”, though, I took you to mean not just our fans, but the owners too - you did refer to “also-ran clubs”. So my point was that Gino didn’t seem happy with what seems to me (room for disagreement on this, I acknowledge) to be a broadly similar achievement to Puel’s with Southampton.
You see I got confused. Keighley and Chumlax both start with a sort of "c", "k ","ch" sound then go on to have an "l" in the middle somewhere and end fading away ( I assumed the "x" was silent. No? Didn't think you would buy that
I was only thinking about us - the fans - but actually do think the Pozzos would be pleased with 7/8th and a cup final now.
May I just jump into this conversation? In my view there should be no eqivocation about QSF. Charming guy and all that. But his early season form was flattered by Deeney and particularly Ighalo scoring. When Ighalo dried up so did the wins. He probably didn't have as good a squad as we now have, but there were few injuries. He seemed to have a single plan for all the games and the results were poor. All coaches in the Premier League must have more than one possible approach to any game. QSF did not seem to have. And, in the latter part of the season, not only the results were poor but the football was dreadful. His persistance with the likes of Jurado and Suarez was utterly perplexing. I particularly recall the away game at Southampton - dire performance, completely abysmal. The overall points total for the season looked respectable, especially to the careless pundits. But any possibility of a continuation of the late form into the next season would have spelt relegation. He had to go. It's all this stuff with selective statistics that is the enemy of the truth. Sorry to butt in.
I agree entirely. The point I was trying to make is that this was obvious to us supporters, and to Gino. But it seems to me that there were very similar issues at play with Southampton under Puel, albeit over a somewhat shorter timeframe. So, I don’t think we should be so surprised that they got shot of him. Just saying that they finished 8th and reached a Cip final and so had a good season masks the reality.
If Puel had stayed there is no suggestion he would have had anything other than the sort of season he had before they got rid. Unlike QSF he did not manage a club that went into a half season nosedive. There is no comparison between our second half under QSF and any part of Puel's season. On top of that as I keep on saying he got them to 8th and a cup final. If QSF's season had not been a good half followed by a bad one I doubt the Pozzos would have chopped him - but as Fozainglese says there was no way they were going to allow his last 5 months' results carry on into the next season.
As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. I think there is a considerable similarity between the last half of QSF’s season and the last 1/4 of Southampton’s. Why does their performance in those last 8 games not provide a suggestion that they might well have carried on that form into the following season? I acknowledge that that is a shorter timeframe but bearing in mind the higher expectations arising from being an established PL club, I do not think the sacking is really that surprising, though surely wrong in retrospect.
On BBC site Gracia says ""We'll see after the last game if the club respects my contract or will speak with me. But I'm proud to be with this club and I'm happy here." Hmmm - sounds like he may be expecting the worst - but does not look like he wants to go.
He cannot be totally assured because of the away results. At home we've been decent, occasionally very good. We seem to destroy teams in the first half, but with little to show for it. You have to have been impressed by the performances at home. I know I have. But, you never know with Gino. If Gracia goes, then the next guy will have already been lined up and will be in quickly. I just get the feeling, we're close to really taking off as a club.
It’s an interesting juxtaposition tonight isn’t it? We had it too the last time we played Newcastle. We won 3-0, were famously first on Match of the Day, and I think a lot felt the same back then about ‘close to taking off as a club’. Everton had already come calling by then and true we’d had some poor results but that Newcastle win that Saturday was a good feeling. Personally I hoped back then that Silva would stay, be re-focussed and we would take off. It didn’t happen. Fast forward a few months and we’ve beaten them again, and despite our frequent stutters I think one can see the makings of a good side. There’s certainly enough quality there that with the right Coach and the right recruitments over the summer, you can indeed see us going places. But is Gracia that Coach and will Giraldi recruit well?
What are the prospects of a manager who is parachuted into a struggling Premiership club in January with the single aim to avoid relegation? In his time in charge he gets slightly better than a point per game (1.1 to be precise). Gracia? Yes -but also Silva. The only difference was Hull got relegated so Silva left - and his reputation was not called into question despite that being his only Premiership experience. Watford stayed up. Yet many fans want the manager out because he is not good enough. Was Silva good enough for them a year ago? Odd isn't it?
Hull’s squad was of considerably less quality than ours. And Silva took over a team that were in the relegation zone, Gracia didn’t. Whilst I understand you drawing parallels, and there are some, there is big differences in situations.
The quality of the sides can be debated I guess - read some on here and we have quite a few players not up to Premiership standard. Plus take into account players who have been unavailable through injury takes out a good few of our better players. I don't see what difference it makes how far down the table Hull were - our record in the games preceding Gracia's appointment was no better than Hull's. In fact being at the bottom meant the incentive to get results should have been greater if anything. You can only compare records and they were almost identical. Certainly Gracia would seem to have done at least as much as Silva in stabilising a side in freefall. Who knows - next year he could get off to a start like Silva did for us and Everton might come calling
Well not really. The perception of taking over a team in the bottom 3 would be that you have a real job on your hands to change their fortunes. The perception of taking over a team that was 10th would be that you should be able to keep them up not bother. The different in the quality of squads is stark as well, injury crisis or not. Their squad was terrible apart from their defence which included Maguire, Robertson and Ranocchia.
QSF being lined up as Spain manager according to the bbc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/gossip Spain have lined up former Watford boss Quique Sanchez Flores as their next manager after Julen Lopetegui was sacked on the eve of the World Cup for joining Real Madrid. (AS) Jurado getting his head measured for cap size as we speak.
Jurado would fit right in to that Spain side that played the other day: pass, pass, pass, pass (x 1,000)... “Oh, we’ve lost.”
Should we be looking at lining up Gareth for a homecoming after world champions England fail miserably at Euro 2020?
