I've never really understood how you can exclude something like that. The 8pts we got in the first 4 games can only have had an influence on what came afterwards. It may well have led to complacency or arrogance but you can't just exclude them completely.
Football is now a stranger business than its ever been, the only constant is not the players, not the owners, not the Manager/coaching team but the fans and we the fans have less say in what happens than the previously mentioned groups! In ten years time if not before there will not be any members of the current coaching/playing staff on the payroll and possibly new owners/directors but the fans remain! We just enjoy the ride come what may!
They are there - a fact - so nobody is excluding them completely. However if you understand we got 8 points from the first 4 games - a good start then you see that since then we have got less than a point per game. Looking at 37 points from 34 games disguises it. We need to understand that since the beginning of September our record was relegation form. The whole time. Due to the good start we think we have been mid table - well we have occupied a mid table position but our performances have been relegation material - for eight of the nine months.
When will people realise that we're a bog standard Premier League team. We will have runs of great form and runs of awful form. We're going to survive comfortably, who cares where the points came from.
Not sure we are bog standard. Our model is anything but that. Let's just see - our run of good form was 4 matches - the first four. Our run of awful form has been the next 30 - with less than a point per game. If staying up is your only aspiration then good for you. We should achieve it - not comfortably as we may again finish one place above relegation on current form. Most of us hope for better than that.
Don't think barely surviving is anyone's hope for the season, but nothing stands us apart from all the teams that surround us. We're all spending big, we've all got 1/2 players who are of decent quality and for the most part we all constantly chop and change managers. The only potential justification for expecting more is if we dramatically outspend other sides, and that's not exactly worked out for Everton
For me it’s not necessarily about expecting more. I would like improvement and we showed signs of that this season before the Everton saga. So we know it’s not beyond the realms of this squad to do it again. My concern isn’t that we will always stay where we are in the table. It’s that with this manager, I feel we will go backwards.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. We can all pick any chunk of games to suit an argument. I’ll pick the second set of four games. We took 7 points, including losing one 6-0 at home, but that’s still not relegation form is it? So why not say we took 15 points from the first 8 games. Then we’ve only taken 22 points from the last 26 games. That would only strengthen your argument, surely?
But it was not a random chunk of games was it. My argument is about the LAST 30 games we have played. Yes I am sure I could have picked a 22 or 26 games or whatever. They would broadly point to the same conclusion. After a good start we have been relegation material for 9 months. 30 games on the trot out of 34 is significant however you criticise my point. Argue whatever you like but the facts are that for most of the season we have been on relegation form. Do you think that is not true? Try it the other way. Leave out 4 of our defeats if you like and argue that 37 points from 30 games represents good form - and that is the best you could pick.
Ha ha everybody. OK smart people. Silva's start excepted (because we all agree that was good) - can anyone claim we have had even ten or a dozen games where our form was NOT relegation form?
I had a quick look at your 29pts from 30 game example. We'd be 16th if you ignore everybody's first 4 games, 6pts above 18th. Fml, we're not even bad enough for relegation! And this one sees us in 17th, 2pts above Stoke in 18th. Moral of the story - we might be bad but there are others who are worse. And relegation form in this league is much less than 1ppg.
I suspect in 10 years time the Pozzos will have made their ££££ from Watford and a suitable middle eastern / Chinese owner will have been found. I'm less confident that it will be a Russian, given current events.
In your book only the three teams that suffer relegation display relegation form do they? So a team that drops into 18th place on the last day was previously not in relegation form? Do you honestly believe that? By your definition then let me appease you and say we suffer from "flrting with relegation" form. Is that so much better. 37 points or less frequently sees teams relegated so if you are happy with less than a point per game good luck. In one year you will be relegated. I cannot believe how many are implying that the last 30 games results are anything less than unacceptable.
They are businessmen. They would sell tomorrow if they got a silly offer from an egotistical billionaire. A business's true value is the net present value of its expected future cashflows. Our last results show despite the mega cash from being in the prem, the costs become mega too and you don't actually make much money. However if someone want to be able to tell their friends that they own a premier league club, there are a limited number you can buy, pushing the price much higher than the cashflow could ever justify. They will get a great offer one day and sell for £millions the club they bought for very little and it will be good business.
I do not agree. 37 from 34 is poor at best. 37 from 34 multiplies up to just 41 points from 38 for a season. The average number of points across the last 25 years in the Premiership is 52. So we are running well short of average even when you use your figures. Still if you think 41 points in a season is not poor we can just disagree.
Not disagreeing, but the establishment of an elite group mean that the average points in the pack has become less and less.
If you exclude the top 6 the of course the average of the 14 is lower. I could do that maths easily if you are interested. However for those who did not like me excluding the first four games of the season it would be a bit rich to argue we were average by excluding the top teams
I was thinking why don't WFC Forum members start a collective & start saving for the takeover. To start with I want; Hornet Boy1 - Head Coach David Sawyer - Head of Analysis Reids - FD/Head of Investments Kelso - Supporter liaison/Anti discrimination officer This is the only time I can envisage us top 6
I would like Hoddesdon Ladies tennis club to do a reverse take over of WFC. We'll only ever be moderate in the Prem. Selling Doucs, Richie & all the others who, after all, have nor proven track record in ladies tennis, we could release substantial funds. Re investing these, we'd blow the Herts Ladies Tennis League apart.
Errrr - because we are in the Premiership with them and they play every other team? For once we both agree - we are not top six material. But you think we are average when we will be getting a dozen points less than average. I say we are currently poor. I look forward to tyhe day when we become average and get around 50 55 points My bet is the Pozzos are not happy with our points total and falling position either.
We are nominally in the same league, but there's a great big glass ceiling that exists between the top 6 and the rest. If you compare us to Man City, then yes, we are well below par. If you compare us to similar sides, then we are very much average. I'd also point out that we are 12th at this moment. Only Gino knows what he expected from the season, and whether just surviving is enough. Personally I feel that we have probably the worst defence in the whole division, and arguably the worst strikeforce. Were it not for our early season form we would be sitting where West Brom are now. Luckily others have faltered and we will survive (barely) If Gino is serious about challenging for 7th/8th place, then he needs to spend £20m+ on a new striker, and £30m+ on a new defence. Otherwise we'll be sitting here next year in exactly the same position if not worse
So to make your point you are happy to exclude 6 of the teams we play against but not 4 of the matches we played. I heard last year week in week out that we were 12th or thereabouts - but we finished one place above relegation. On current form that will happen this year too. Gino is on record in saying he wants us to progress upwards. 45 points followed by 40 points got WM sacked and this year we could be hard pushed to get 40 points. He said he wants more than that. So according to you we have the worst attack and worst defence but are average. Finally you admit that but for our early season form we could be bottom. Taken a while but you have got there in the end. This is where I started this bit of conversation talking about our form after the good start. I agree with your last sentence too .
Well, he tried that with Gray. Forget about the money aspect, as we tend to get better players when we spend less on them. What I will agree on, is that we need to turn our attention to vastly improving the defence and signing a quality striker. Be it a raw kid with potential, or a seasoned pro, like Austin/Long. We need better than what we currently have, that's for sure. If we are smart, it can be done on the cheap. Look at Cleverley, Chalobah, Kiko, Doucoure & Hughes. All signed for a combined total of £26m. This is how smart we can be, and we need to do that again this summer.
On current form that may well happen. But we are 12th none the less. That would indicate that across the whole season so far 8 teams have picked up less points than us, 11 have picked up more - I'd say that's about average. There's no point speculating where we'll end up because that's dependent on lots of things. Our form has been poor, but really that's been the case for a lot of sides at some point in the season. Doesn't matter when you pick up the points, as long as you do. The defence and attack are both poor. Luckily our midfielders have got 20 odd goals, and that's been enough to cover up our horrendous defending and toothless attack. We're around 13th if you did the table based on goal difference. Gino will want more, but we'll be stuck in our cycle of hiring and firing unless we heavily invest. I don't want Gracia long term, but unless whoever comes in is given the right players, then we'll never progress. Every side that survives from 7th downwards will be spending big money in the summer to try and improve on this season, and I don't know why we should expect to finish above any of them, especially since our top scorer will likely leave.
I don't think even Sheff Wed would take him. It's baffling. Even if he wasn't replaced it would be fine.
L Surely if Holebas isn’t content with being back-up for whoever we sign to replace him, he’ll be off to Udinese on loan.
All other clubs should rail against this type of thinking. It's the media line, so they only have to learn about 6 teams. Otherwise you can write off the futures of Everton, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Sheffield Wednesday, West Ham...and dozens of others, as well as Watford, Swansea, Huddersfield and the rest. We can all aspire to do what Leicester did, however unlikely that might be.
It's nothing to do with the media. The teams that spend the most achieve the most in the long run, and attract the best players. Leicester won the league, and their best player left to join a side who wasn't even playing in Europe. Like it or not, there are only 6 sides in the division that players aspire to play for. Even if we'd had a great season, finishing in the europa league places, 3/4 of the players would be looking to move straight away. Just look at what's happened to Southampton over the past 4 years
