The defence is underinvested, we all know that. The quality is of Championship standard by and large. However, only Liverpool and Bournemouth have destroyed us defensively this season. We shipped in 15 goals to those two sides, but no one else has managed to score more than twice against us in a single game. Of the other 26 matches, we've only conceded 25 goals, which is outstanding and far more representative of how well we've done in the vast majority of games.
Agreed. I don't think it's a blind spot for Gino, I just think we have very limited resourses compared to those around us and he feels that money has a bigger impact if spent elsewhere. Having said that our defensive record has been remarkably good given the players available to Gracia - I feel he deserves massive credit for this....other than last night !
Big part of goalkeeping is organising the defence so maybe he's not so good at that. 15 goals to 36 is quite a gap but I'm by no means saying De Gea is a bad keeper, he clearly isn't, but Allison has proved himself to be top quality. My point was that they have some excellent players, way above ours, so to call it spineless is over the top considering how we've done this year
Well I'm married to one, so I obviously feel there are exceptions to the rule (plus, you'll never persuade me that any set of Premiership fans are worse than the odious Crystal Palace lot). That said, the atmosphere in the HH household was a bit surreal last night. I was, thankfully, in a different room to Mr HH while the match was on. When our paths reconverged later in the evening, neither of us referred to the match at all; it was the elephant in the room. You know things are bad when your husband feels too sorry for you to gloat! Anyway, I thought I'd better be the "bigger" person so congratulated Mr HH this morning on Liverpool's "narrow victory". Unfortunately, this opened the floodgates for Mr HH to give me his "appraisal" of the match; for what it's worth, the view of this Liverpool fan was that we weren't bad, we were just unlucky to meet Liverpool on a night when they were very good. He thought Foster played well and Deulofeu should have scored.I think he was trying to make me feel better. However, he then spoiled his good intentions by observing how inconsistent Watford are - can batter someone one week then be pulverised themselves. At the point he likened us to Bournemouth in this respect, I found an excuse to leave the room.....
I maybe wrong as I don't want to watch the 'highlights' but it looked like he tried to backheel it and ended up backheeling it on to his left leg.
Agreed though Hughes and Deeney are perfect against the likes of Cardiff and Burnley. Pereyra's good games are getting heavily outweighed by his bad.
It is noticeable that those 2 teams play systems that are ideally suited to cause problems to our narrow set up. Liverpool getting it wide with 2 full backs who are excellent crossers, but who can also feed the wide runs into the box of Salah & Mane etc; Muff with the pace & mobility of such as Wilson & King successfully to exploit the large gap that can form in the areas alongside Capoue & Doucoure when they transition the play rapidly enough. Most other teams try to work the ball across the midfield until they can play a straighter ball into the forwards & our system suffocates the space they need resulting in regular turnover of possession. Gracia got it wrong last night by not adapting our normal formation in acceptance of the fact it played into their hands. Maybe that's why he has been so vocal in stating his players still have his full support & trust. Hopefully he will become a bit more flexible & realise we are not good enough to simply set up "our way" against certain systems.
As was widely stated in a previous thread where people tried to point out we probably cannot offer the wages required to upgrade our CBs to the necessary level.
So, you're saying we need a new.... left back, midfielder on the right, midfielder on the left, centre forward and two centre backs?
My point is a "football" fan who doesn't go to games, (my Liverpool supporting mate who lives in Cornwall manages to do it), has no valid opinion because they're a tw*t. And yes, I'm still bl**dy angry about last nights result so factor that in to my answer.
It might be just me but from what I saw last night, it didn’t seem we tried either of those gameplans though? I didn’t see us going gung-ho tactically but neither did we attempt anything like being tight defensively. We were all over the shop. I accept the best teams have the ability to make lesser teams look silly at times. But I honestly don’t know what we were trying to implement last night beyond an acceptance that we would get hammered. From the 1st minute, the players just looked defeated. Gracia has worked wonders with us this season and has been widely lauded for it. But by the same token, he can’t be above criticism when he gets it wrong. And last night he did. He needs to find a backup system for the team because he only plays this 4-2-2-2 system and then gets his subs wrong because not every player we have fits the system. Pereyra and Hughes must also have some dirt on him because they have been dreadful for months.
I don't mind criticism of a manager for failing to park the bus. However, when many of those same people the following season complain that "I don't mind getting beaten, but we could have at least tried to attack" then it gets a bit annoying. Every defeat isn't always a managers fault. Overall success / failure throughout a season is, in general, down to him. It doesn't matter what tactics you use, 9 times out of 10 we lose away at Anfield.
Given I generally criticise the hysteria that immediately follows a defeat, I ought to say now that I have some sympathy this time: Being beaten was one thing but 5 - 0 was very disappointing. With a bit of grim boasting: I called it in #212: The obvious thing would be to target Masina. He actually doesn't strike me as bad, just very ordinary. And he has had very little game time, so Salah was always going to give him grief. There should have been some sort of system to protect him; but the problem is how? Against a team of players as good as Liverpool's each of your players has his work cut out, you can't just say watch out for so-and-so he's their danger-man. I suppose Javi got it wrong, in the end. He tried to give it a go to see if we could beat them, but probably, with hindsight of course, we should have packed the defence and parked the Routemaster. I should say I did not see this match just listened. However, Peyreyra sounds increasingly marginal. A luxury player and the one who, had he been up to it, should have been protecting that left flank. His defensive work is poor. I now worry about Leicester and their expected new manager bounce, with a couple of pacey players themselves...…..
I didn't even think Liverpool played that well - we were just absolutely atrocious, if this was the Liverpool from earlier on in the season we'd of lost by 7 or 8 - it really was that bad. It's similar to the Spurs game a few weeks back, this time the opposition could finish - I'm under no illusions that had Kane and Ali played that game it'd been a similar scoreline to last night. Something I have noticed when we play the bigger teams is that our players seem to show the opposition far too much respect and act like a bunch of League 2 players getting a Liverpool or City in the FA Cup 3rd round. If we're going to end up doing what we did last night against Man City away then we're better off giving the bulk of our starting XI the evening off ahead of the Quarter Final and giving the back up/youth players some game time.
I agree that ‘spineless’ isn’t a fair accusation on the whole. Un-motivated is fairer maybe in terms of last night. We will always have fans who sit on either side of the fence when it comes to results and performances. Results wise, 2019 has been good. But that’s masked some poor performances in reality. We have been poor more times than we’ve been good so far this year so the form is a bit of an anomaly.
I have been as sceptical as you in that respect. But I did definitely get the sense from attending the ‘At Your Place’ event that the powers-that-be know about it and tried to address it in January. So I definitely expect it to be looked at in the summer. The question is, will it be addressed with the quality CB’s with technical ability that we need? Or will it be addressed with bargain dross (Masina/Zeegelaar...Navarro?)? Or maybe even just new contracts for what we already have?!
Very similar comment, to my initial appraisal last night, from Ben Foster. https://www.empireofthekop.com/2019/02/28/ben-foster-really-hated-dogsht-anfield-evening/
People grow up and move away from their childhood clubs. To commit a whole day and a lot of money to go see a game halfway across the country isn't possible with some people's prioirities in life. Watching a game in person from the away end after 3 pre match pints doesn't make your football analysis skills better
Oh dear, just when I was thinking this is the best Watford team for many years, it turns out we are, in fact, sh1te. Looking forward to a good result on Sunday to restore my faith
I have been to approximately 1500 Watford games over the years but am unable to attend regularly now. Am I a tw*t or is it pot calling kettle?
Nonsense. I give the team and particularly Gracia plenty of praise when they do well. Getting tonked 5-0 with an atrocious defensive performance is spineless in my book. Beaten before they stepped on the pitch. You seem a bit precious about any criticism of team performance so keep clapping superfan.
In 1938 Manchester City were relegated with a goal difference of +3, having been Champions the season before.
I don't think that it was us paying too much respect, or that our players bottled it - it's that Liverpool, City and to some extent Spurs, press so hard, that our players have no time to think or act and so they make more mistakes. I thought we started out looking OK on that front yesterday, popping the ball about in midfield OK, but then, inexplicably, the marking just wasn't there for the first two goals. From my POV it was Mariappa guilty for the first and then Janmaat for the second. Both looking towards Sane and watching him waltz right into our box to score. When we lost at home to Liverpool and City, there were some saying "I'd rather we'd given it a go." Well, last night is what it looks like when you give it a go against such sides. I know it didn't look like it, in the sense we were hardly peppering them with attacks, but we set up far too open and too narrow. We needed to sit back with 10 players behind the ball, no gaps in between and make it hard for them. We did that at home and as boring as it was, until the scored, it was tough for them. Last night was a breeze and we essentially just provided shooting practice. Overconfidence, naivety - who knows. However we set up against Liverpool last night, 99 times out of 100 we'd probably still lose, but we didn't really give ourselves a chance or even make it difficult for them. I think it's one we all need to shrug off - the result, if not the scoreline was more or less inevitable. We go away, we regroup, we dust ourselves off, we get our heads in the game and, on Sunday, vs Leicester, we GO AGAIN!
It is fine for us fans to get all giddy and hope we dont sit back against teams like liverpool, but the manager? When the team was announced I was happy as a pig in **** that it was going to be an all out attacking display, and was convinced we were going to dish out a frightful beating to liverpool. But I had 5 pints of strong lager in my gut to excuse my extreme stupidity. What the **** is that gurning simpleton on the sideline's excuse? To make matters worse, I still had a tiny ray of hope at 2-0 that we'd turn it all around, so sat and watched that battering until the 65th minute. I was burning with shame on the way out. How stupid must you be to still be in the ground at that point? When will I learn.
And you drove 5 hours to watch that ****. I was watching on TV and turned over as soon as the net bulged for Mané's second. You really need a long hard word with yourself about how highly you value your own time.
