(loaned Out) Cucho Hernandez

Discussion in 'The Team Bus' started by reids, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Smudger likes this.
  2. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Both of our useless loanees scoring tonight.

    Get rid.
     
  3. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Smudger and La_tempesta_cielo_68 like this.
  4. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Cucho, Welbeck, Sarr, or we riot
     
  5. Cassetti's Beard

    Cassetti's Beard First Team

    I hope for both their careers they come no where near our shambles of a club
     
  6. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    That cross was no better than anything our players produce - but someone attacked it. Seems to make a difference. Who'd have thought?
     
  7. Carpster

    Carpster Reservist

    Ok I watched the first half when they played Atletico Madrid and he does naturally go wide. He was mainly pulling to the right while I was watching. He also delivered some good crosses. But dont you think that he could be coached into a decent striker? If you play a front three it's good that they can interchange positions.
     
  8. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Deulofeu?

    I think Welbeck is also better as a left-sided forward than as a CF, I don't think his close control and physical presence is good enough to be effective as a CF. There was a bit at the start of the second half vs Norwich when Deeney and Welbeck swapped, with Deeney on the left and Welbeck through the middle, and the couple of times Welbeck received the ball he was immediately crowded out and dispossessed easily; he needs space to operate in and run in to, he can't get that through the middle.
     
  9. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I've also seen him play as a right-sided forward; looking at his heat map from this season he's played more on the left, but last season it was a bit more even. One thing's for sure though, he spends more time on either flank than he does through the middle (I put the heatmaps here, with some comparison points):

    http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/luis-suarez.57083/#post-2849658

    When you look at most teams that play a front three, even if they are fairly fluid, the focal point of the three is usually fairly capable at playing with their back to goal, holding the ball up and providing some physical presence, e.g. Martial, Kane, Firmino, Giroud, Jimenez, Budimir (Mallorca's more typical #9 when playing with Cucho), Deeney (when he occasionally would at least put in an average performance). This is necessary as that area of the pitch can get very crowded with 2 CBs for company.

    Cucho isn't very adept at playing with his back to goal and I don't think he has the physical presence to be coached in to it. It's just not his typical game. I've seen him often get dispossessed too easily at times when trying to receive the ball in tight spaces, even when on the ground rather than in the air. He struggles to get involved in matches when he's the #9. That's why he tends to drift to the flanks, so he has more chance of being able to receive the ball in space so he can turn and run at defenders, or arrive in the box unmarked from deep to get on the end of a cross.

    Playing an "interchangeable" / fluid front three won't really work if none of them really want to interchange in to playing through the middle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
    Happy bunny, Carpster and The Recluse like this.
  10. EB Hornet

    EB Hornet Reservist

    Sounds like we're covered for the more wide players then.

    Suarez maybe? I'd like to see us buy a 9 and a 10 to be honest if none of these guys are capable.
     
  11. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Suarez is the closest, but it would still be a stretch to expect him to be able to start and perform every week already (if we're in the Prem). We'll 100% need to sign a new number 9, but the Pozzos could be cheapskates again.
     
  12. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Well, Geri might not be fit for a while, so that's what I'd like to see for the start of next season. I know it's Chelsea, who don't know the meaning of the word defend, but we looked far more lively with Welbeck than we did with Deeney for the last few minutes, so although he's limited at CF (not like we can magically buy the complete striker), rather him than Deeney
     
  13. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Of course, if next season, whatever boss we have, we go for a 2 striker system, we could be accumulating a lot of decent options (hey, even Deeney and Gray aren't complete incompetents in a front 2)
     
  14. TomWatfordFC

    TomWatfordFC First Year Pro

    Scored against Granada
     
  15. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    Yes they are.
     
  16. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

  17. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

  18. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    Ha! Subbed in the 88th minute and sent off in the 97th!!
     
  19. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Good lad. Don't want to risk him getting an injury in the last game.
     
    The Recluse likes this.
  20. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    That's not right - Cucho scored in the 20th minute (then got a red card in the 97th).
     
  21. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Um, Gray averaged a goal every 200 minutes last season, and Deeney got 11 even though he didn't play every game, comfortably within a goal every 4 which is serviceable at our level. Deeney's obviously a lump who can hardly move these days, and Gray can hardly kick the ball, and there's a lot to be said that 3 in the middle of the park with wingers is far more dangerous, but they were both far more dangerous last season with a 2 up top
     
  22. The Recluse

    The Recluse Reservist

    I'd already posted a link to his goal
    I was adding to the match information not summarising the whole game.

    And definitely subbed after 88 minutes.
    Screenshot 2020-07-16 at 23.11.01.jpeg
     
    GoingDown likes this.
  23. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    Subbed off in the 88th? Petulance or dissent from the bench I guess, at a defeat which relegated Mallorca. We gonna recall him now? Might be useful to give him an extra week or so here before we hopefully play him next season
     
  24. NathWFC

    NathWFC First Team

    "Last season". So, by the time we kick off again that'll be completely irrelevant stats from two seasons ago. Again it's harking on back to the past to try and find some sort of positivity where there isn't really any.

    Deeney is 32 and past it and Gray is complete and utter toilet. Both the fans and club have to stop making excuses for them and desperately searching for reasons for them to carry on being a part of our squad.
     
    Carpster and GoingDown like this.
  25. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Ah, subbed off. I'd wondered if he'd done a Troy vs Arsenal-type thing.

    One never usually hears of players getting red cards from the bench, how bizarre.
     
    The Recluse likes this.
  26. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    As further evidenced by that video, his best and most natural position is the same one as Deulofeu and Welbeck.
     
  27. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    Looks like you're right but I don't feel him or Welbeck would be a bad option as the number 9.
     
  28. reids

    reids Squad Player

    Welbecks natural position is surely down the middle rather than out wide?

    [​IMG]

    With Welbecks fitness, Suarez + Deeney would still likely get plenty of game time. A decent amount of talent + depth in there imo.
     
  29. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    As I've pointed out elsewhere, Welbeck's lack of close control and long gait means he too often loses the ball easily in central areas. At the start of the second half of the Newcastle game for instance he and Deeney switched for a bit and Welbeck lost the ball the two times it came near him before they switched back.

    Also, even when asked to play more central his natural game is also to drift wide left to have more opportunities to run with the ball and come in at the back post. At Arsenal he also played most his games as the left-sided forward.

    However one defines it, Welbeck trying to be a CF, with Cucho as left forward, or vice-versa, would see them both stepping on each other's toes, and the team still having no players capable of holding the ball up. Welbeck, Deulofeu, Cucho and Joao Pedro in the same squad would be silly when all 4 want to play the same way in the same position.

    We've often seen what happens in games without Deeney, as bad as he's been this season, we lack an out ball and end up penned in our own half and somehow seem more toothless.

    In future we shouldn't be relying on Deeney to be anything more than an impact or time-wasting sub, if that, so we'd still need another CF (maybe that could be Suarez, but he might need more time).
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  30. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    These are some of Welbeck's heatmaps btw. They support what I say above - as with Cucho, he really struggles to get involved in the match in central areas and fails to occupy CBs. He also naturally drifts to the left.

    Even though he's been popping up with some important moments, he remains a generally peripheral figure in matches. His overall heatmaps are very similar to Cucho's and Deulofeu's, but with even less typical match involvement than either (especially Del).

    Also, contrast his heatmaps to those from Deeney, Budimir, and to a lesser extent Suarez to see how different what Welbeck contributes to what we'd generally expect and require from a CF:

    http://wfcforums.com/index.php?threads/luis-suarez.57083/#post-2849658

    Way back in 15/16. when Welbeck played most games as a supposed CF:

    [​IMG]

    Welbz 16/17, when he still played most games as a CF:

    [​IMG]

    Welbz 17/18, mixed:

    [​IMG]

    Welbz this season:

    [​IMG]

    quick contrast heatmaps for those who can't be bothered to click the link above, Deeney from this season:

    [​IMG]

    Cucho this season (sometimes was asked to play on the right where he was less effective; as allergic to central areas as Welbz):

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  31. reids

    reids Squad Player

    Would be interesting to compare formations used to those heatmaps, when playing with 1 up front I'd wager that a lot of strikers will drift wide to help cause overloads in those positions and get involved in play a bit more, whereas with 2 up front that responsibility is split so the strikers are more likely to show up as being central on heatmaps. I know Zaragoza play 2 up front which would explain Suarez and even Deeneys heatmaps show a lot of activity in the half-space and wing areas
     
  32. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    "when playing with 1 up front I'd wager that a lot of strikers will drift wide to help cause overloads in those positions and get involved in play a bit more,"

    I don't think that bit is true in most cases; Deeney's activity in the wide areas is way less than the central areas. It's the same for Budimir at Mallorca.

    Whether Mallorca have played either 4-4-2 with Budimir and Cucho as the 2, or 4-3-3, it was always Budimir primarily occupying the central positions with Cucho drifting to the flanks. Budimir with Cucho is the same as Deeney with Welbeck. Cucho the few times he was asked to spearhead Mallorca's attack didn't work for them this season and they usually reverted back to putting him as the deeper/wider forward somehow.

    Looking at central strikers in 4-3-3/4-5-1 systems in the PL, the central striker invariably is way more involved within the widths of the penalty box - Giroud, Aguero, Jimenez, even Vardy spends a surprisingly little amount of time pulling on to the flanks when looking at his heatmap.

    Suarez seems almost as capable/desirous of playing in central areas, but still drifts more to the left flank than most central strikers in 4-3-3s tend to do.
     
  33. simpleMASH

    simpleMASH Reservist

    All that shows is that Deeney doesn’t move. We all know that anyway, that’s the problem. Put someone in who can move around, be a bit harder to mark, make a nuisance of themselves.
     
  34. I don't know what those heat maps are supposed to show either. I do know Cucho and Suarez have far more movement, energy, and creativity than Deeney and I'd have either in the side over him in a heartbeat.
     
    reids, NathWFC and RS2 like this.
  35. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! Reservist

    I guess he comes to us if we stay up, but what about if we go down, what do we reckon?
     

Share This Page