LGBT school lessons protests

Discussion in 'Taylor's Tittle-Tattle - General Banter' started by Lloyd, May 21, 2019.

  1. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    What's fundamentally dishonest? Do you deny that in some areas of Britain large sections of the Muslim community (not just a handful of cranks) is currently protesting about the teaching of homosexuality in schools?
     
  2. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    No.

    I question the objectives of someone who is clearly posting in bad faith and pretending this is a solely Muslim issue, or that people (read: the left) are somehow conflicted over the subject. It isn't, and they're not. There are plenty of Christians protesting too, but you seem to be ignoring them because it doesn't fit the narrative.

    Acting like this opposition is solely coming from one faith is wholly disingenuous.

    I note you engaged with one line out of a larger argument and attempted to reframe the conversation, which indicates you know your point is on shaky grounds.
     
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  3. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

  4. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    'Large sections'? How many people involved? A few dozen intimidating others. Blowhards that will be soon seen off.

    You are dishonest for all the reasons Arakel gives. You generalise and offer no context. Simply search 'Christians against homosexuality' on Google or youtube and tell me who has a cultural problem.
     
  5. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    At last, some balance.
     
  6. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    The ECHR isn't an EU body.

    Otherwise, carry on.
     
  7. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Maybe it's because you are in the US and don't see the news, but what is appearing in the news here, and to which MP's are becoming embroiled is because Muslims are keeping hundreds of children out of school and protesting outside their school, not Seikhs, Hindu's, not Christians.

    But when Christians have protested in the past, their "not keeping up with the times" was a debate all over the media as it was over women in the clergy, and one that I am sure you would have been happy to contribute to. What we didn't hear at that time were Christians suggesting that the debate should be suppressed because other religions, such as Islam, also do not have female clerics/mullahs. Every religion is equally open to be questioned, including Islam.

    On this occasion, it is Muslims complaining outside British schools who are trying to follow the law of the land, and you wish to suppress the fact, and/or imply that anyone that wants to talk about it must be anti-Muslim. Clearly Moose feels the same as he objects to the OP too. In Jess Phillip's words, "I don’t agree that you get to pick and choose which equality you can and can’t have".
     
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  8. Arakel

    Arakel First Team

    Sorry, that was a bit too meta.

    That was supposed to read as a joke about "taking back control" (or not, as the case may be), but reading it back I realise it didn't remotely read that way at all. Apologies to anyone I confused with my poor phrasing.
     
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  9. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    I note that you have edited your post several times since my response. Your attempt to imply that any discussion of current events is somehow anti-Muslim is, frankly, ridiculous. And, by attempting to shut this issue down by groping through history to find examples of where the gay community has suffered from the prevailing political attitude of the time or digging out some Old Testament Christian Fundamentalist types who believe homosexuality is a sin, illustrates perfectly the attitude of the left and their discomfort around this very complex situation
     
  10. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    You are wading in not following the argument. I don’t hear anyone suggesting that this behaviour from these Muslim parents is acceptable.

    The debate is the purpose to which Lloyd launches this debate. Because he is fierce about gay rights? Let him answer where he was on this when the Tories were blocking any mention of homosexuality in schools. I bet that didn’t stop you voting for them either. I be the both of you have views that have changed a lot in a decade.

    Like I say, if you want to link it to solely culture, come back after googling other religion’s views.

    Dishonest making out it’s one side. Dishonest making out that the left and liberals are finding this difficult. Shyte-stirring and you know it. This will soon pass.
     
  11. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I stayed out of it until I noticed that posters seemed to be wanting to suppress the discussion. The actual rights and wrongs of the Muslim stance didn't even seem to be the main thrust of his argument, but it was the dilemma that he thinks the Labour Party may feel. I agree with him on that. Having read the book on Corbyn, and seen how his relationship with the Muslims has become stronger over the past 40 odd years, I wonder if he will enter the debate on how one of (arguably) the most currently intolerant and unequal religions,when it comes to sexuality and women, have handled this argument over equality for the LGBT community. It will be interesting, and the way you are fiercely protesting against the OP, shows that you think it is worth trying to suppress it.
     
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  12. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Not even a good attempt. I'm not sure how I could be clearer about my stance on it. You are just throwing mud, hoping some of it will stick. That's a dubious tactic when religion, race or culture are involved.

    But come on, when did you change in respect of gay parenting and adoption? No way were you anti the Tories policies on this in the 90s. You must at some point of been anti some aspect of gay rights we take for granted now. Maybe that will help you see that some Muslims merely have to make a similar journey to you.
     
  13. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    I think that most Christians (not all, of course) are less entrenched in their religious values, and if Islam is embarking on a transition in it's views on sexuality, then I suspect it will take 100's of years from now, rather than the 50 odd it has taken most western society.

    I have never, ever been anti "gay rights." I've always been of the opinion that however people want to be, or how they are, is entirely up to them providing it doesn't infringe on everyone else's liberties. I really do not care who anyone marries, or sleeps with, nor what they get up to - even if I am more personally comfortable with some practices than others! But I have certainly never discriminated against gays, and I mix with them without a thought in my social life.

    It isn't what they are, or what they do that bothers me, it is people like you who tell me how I should feel. I remember Carlos Kickaball, getting incensed with me and offended when I suggested that people may feel more naturally attracted, everything else being equal, to someone of their own race, or closer to their own race.

    But, on some more contentious issues, which I am sure will give you ample opportunity to come down on me with all sorts of allegations that I've had in the past;

    I would be more comfortable, all other things being equal,with an adoption of a small child by a straight couple than a gay couple, but I am not against the latter, but I wouldn't think it is ideal for the child. I also think, and I think that Local Authorities feel the same that, ideally, a child is better adopted into a similar race and culture family.
    I am also slightly more comfortable, all things being equal, with a small child being brought up by a young couple than a couple in their early sixties. But, we will do our best with our own grandaughter, whose mum is too ill, but it is not ideal as we get older.
    In all the above cases, I am sure that things can and usually will work out well, but that does not mean that I shouldn't express what I prefer as ideal. But it also doesn't mean that I should try and inflict my views on others, to the point that I try and prevent it.

    Fill your boots, I await a little list of 'isms, thrown at me.
     
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  14. So are these LGBT lessons at school practical?
     
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  15. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Squad Player

    Don't think so, but apparently just the mention of homosexuality is enough to turn at least half the class gay.
     
  16. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I went on a march against Section 28, probably early nineties, which I can tell you was a bit of an eye-opener. Spoiler alert, I'm not gay, I just went along because some friends were going and it seemed unfair to me.

    I understood that there was prejudice, that there was such a thing as 'gay bashing' although not being gay it wasn't something for me to be worried about. The reaction of ordinary shoppers in central london to the march was extraordinary. I've been in some threatening situations but this was intense. I was called 'faggot, queer, pervert etc etc ' people made threatening gestures, got close to my face, said they would 'see us later'. I felt very self-conscious and concerned about what would happen when the march broke up. These were ordinary, mostly white, presumably many Christian people.

    Even given my sympathies and exposure to the prejudice I can't say that I was spontaneously in favour of gay adoption, gay parenting (as if that can be stopped) or even gay marriage. In fact I may only have actually come to support those things fully, enthusiastically within the last 15 years. We have all been on a bit of a journey, can't retrofit the past.

    Given that this hostility in the British public was pretty up front until maybe 15 years ago, that legislation only came in lately, why should Muslim people take twice as long? Irrational. Muslim people are mostly secular even if maybe more religious on the whole than some other groups. And what makes you think it has completely gone in Christians anyway? Just use the internet.

    As for calling you out in 'isms', I would like to remind you that this is exactly why I thundered into the thread. Lloyd cast the first stone trying to snidely cast aspertions about left and liberal people - you won't admit that is what the thread is about I'm sure, but it would be good if you considered this.
     
  17. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Can anyone who understands how these things work please explain why this group of parents have been banned from continuing their peaceful protests over aspects of the school curriculum that they do not agree with, while, for example, London is regularly allowed to be brought to a standstill by groups of largely white, middle class men and women who think they can save the world/stop Brexit /ban Trump etc etc by wearing tie-died clothing?
     
  18. hornmeister

    hornmeister Tired

    It's probably a racist thing.
     
  19. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    I don’t know Lloyd, why do you think it may be considered disruptive to picket a primary school on a daily basis?
     
  20. https://barficulture.tv/people/540
    When you are so blinkered you don't know you are a baddie even when going to the baddies convention.
    [​IMG]

    Katie with some 'cockroaches' as she would have erstwhile have described them.
     
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  21. Lloyd

    Lloyd Squad Player

    Katie Hopkins demonstrating that it is not just those on the left that are confused by this complex and fascinating issue
     
  22. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    What is ‘complex and fascinating’? How is it the left is ‘confused’? The left appears to solidly back the school and not indulge the parents.

    On sorry, I forgot. You have having a massive sulk and won’t engage.

    You are exactly like Hopkins. All over this issue just to stir the pot.
     
  23. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Corrected for you as many protesters are not parents, and certainly do not have kids at that school including that fella that is organising the protests. And many parents are happy to go along with what the school are doing.

    ...just by way of assistance.
     
  24. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Oh dear. I think you have revealed the theme you want. Clearer condemnation of Islam.
     
  25. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Not all, it is only a tiny group of protesters who seem to be Muslim.

    I don't think it is fair of you to condemn all of Islam as you have done. Shame on you.
     
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  26. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Don’t be silly ZZ. It was very clear what you were getting at when you edited my reply.
     
  27. zztop

    zztop Eurovision Winner 2015

    Not clear to you, obviously.
     
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  28. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

    Is it your job to answer for massive drama queen Lloyd? I did once think that the main redeeming feature for Lloyd was that he didn’t take himself too seriously, but clearly I was wrong.
     
  29. The Voice of Reason

    The Voice of Reason First Team Captain

    My personal opinion is that children should be taught about LGBT. However, in this particular case I think the parents have a point as I too believe the children in question are to young. IMO these lessons should wait until the children's final term in Primary Education, just before moving on to Secondary Education.

    My reason being that when children move on to Secondary Education they will be exposed to hearing about LGBT along with many other new things from older children in the playground. Therefore it is probably a good thing that they are taught about such things as LGBT etc. by teachers in a classroom environment, rather than picking up what is very likely to be wrong information from older kids.
     
  30. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

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  31. Moose

    Moose First Team Captain

  32. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

  33. sydney_horn

    sydney_horn Squad Player

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  34. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

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  35. Maninblack

    Maninblack Reservist

    The teaching is all designed to be age appropriate so younger children wouldn't be taught about sexuality as such, just that families with, eg two dads or two mums, are perfectly normal. This would often be done through stories showing such families have the sort of adventures that any family would have. No issue is made of the fact they have two same-sex parents and neither is it explained. It's just presented as ... normal. This is no different than having stories involving black families or parents with different skin colours where that isn't explained, it's just presented as normal (which it is of course).

    As the children progress through school, material is presented with more sophistication and age-appropriate detail, as in any topic in any subject. It is not uncommon for 8 & 9 yr olds to ask teachers they trust questions about sex, including sexuality, even though they may not yet understand what it is they're asking. The skillful teacher will know how to respond in an age-appropriate way but to dismiss or ignore such questions would start the kids thinking 'it must be wrong because my teacher won't answer it'. The issue of whether all teachers are skillful enough to do this is another matter of course!

    I can see where you're coming from, but in reality kids tend not to mix that much with older ones in the secondary playground so that influence is minimal. Many will have older siblings so will come across LGBT issues (in a positive or negative way) before Yr.6 anyway, never mind what they might come across on the internet, either by accident or through curiosity. In addition, the age at which puberty begins is continuing to slowly decrease, so some Yr.6s will already be having sexual feelings and the confusion that often brings. Some of them will know they are 'different' by 11, so to know already by that age that such feelings are normal - and that it's normal to be confused - will help them come to terms with what they are experiencing (and maybe to talk about them with an adult they trust).
     
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