Let's Back Javi

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by wfcmoog, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    Let's assume he is sufficiently bad to get himself sacked after the 10, but to be kind to him not as ******* useless as now - so the results are something such as:

    Brighton - L
    Everton - L
    Newcastle - D
    Arsenal - L
    City - L
    Wolves - D
    Sheffield United - W
    Tottenham - L
    Bournemouth - W
    Chelsea - L

    That leaves us with 8 points after 10 games. Based on the last two seasons of 17th getting 36 - we'd need at least a point a game in what is left. Then we are relying on a new manager to have the 'perfect' survival season with 10 games less than usual? o_O


    You know what to do Pozzo.
  2. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    My initial opinion of him wasn’t great but that was based on his retched away form. I saw alarming signs then and he’s turned them around. Was more than happy to eat my words last season and say I got it wrong.

    I still think I was wrong.
    But something isn’t right. Saturday wasn’t right. There were very alarming signs again. If I was asked with a gun to my head to make a call, I’d say let him continue until the Arsenal game to try and turn it around again. Big game on TV and give him an opportunity to put Sarr in along with our better players. Another odd line-up and terrible tactics/subs will leave the board no choice I think. We simply must beat Arsenal for him to continue his employment if it were me. Grab a win, and he buys himself some breathing space to pick up more points.

    A big part of my reasoning is that I think any manager would struggle with these defenders. Given we’d likely get another manager we haven’t heard of, I’m not convinced a tune can be got out of the back line until the bullet is finally ‘bit’ in terms of investment.
    Chumlax and SkylaRose like this.
  3. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Reservist

    31 points is gettable. That equates to a theoretical 8 wins and 7 draws for a safeish 39 points. Which means we can still lose 13 of the ones left. With Sarr, and hopefully Welbeck, at full fitness there is every chance the second half of the season can be better, just need to sort the defence out.

    The question will be, if your predictions are correct, if the Pozzos are happy with that points total for him to keep his job and whether they have the faith in him to turn round the club's on the field fortunes.
    magpie likes this.
  4. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

  5. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    The frightening thing is those results are decent. Win the tough home games against Bournemouth and Sheff and grab a point at Wolves, combined with our usual cowardice against top 6. Even then we only have 8 from 10.

    Our output in the first 4 games has put us in so much trouble and the team not being prepared for Brighton at home is utterly unforgivable.
    CarlosKickaballs and wfcmoog like this.
  6. luke_golden

    luke_golden Space Cadet

    Yesterday was certainly the first time I’ve felt like Gracia wasn’t capable of bringing this around. The lineup was bizarre, the use of subs encapsulated his recent inability to make changes that turn the game around, and to see the usually gracious Javi complaining to the officials at the end smacked of a guy who could see it all slipping away.

    I agree that most managers would find it hard to make the resources available into a good defense, but the total lack of organization and communication at the back is alarming. We frequently look all over the place at the back. I think it’s partly down to tactics though, and Javi failing to set us up in a way that protects us at the back. Teams have figured out how to exploit the way he plays, and he’s not been able to counteract that.

    I’d love to see him turn it around, but for the first time under Javi, it feels like it’s all a bit too much for him.
    Chumlax and SkylaRose like this.
  7. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    8 of the remaining allowable losses are against top 6 though so only 5 losses wiggle room against teams we compete with.
    CarlosKickaballs likes this.
  8. UEA_Hornet

    UEA_Hornet First Team Captain

    In fairness, that’s been our formula for staying up in recent seasons. Flat track bullies.
  9. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team

    The biggest problem for Javi are the next 3 fixtures. He's not going to be able to turn us around in those fixtures. All he can hope for is a competitive match and respectable defeats. Anything more than a 2 goal loss is not going to read well.

    It will then be 13 defeats and 1 draw from the last 14 matches. We've not had the rub of the green though, and EVERY marginal decision or moment has gone against us. The refereeing decisions which you would normally expect to go our way, have gone against us. Hughes misses a golden chance at 1-1.....then we go on to lose 1-3. Gray missing a golden chance to make it 1-1 against Brighton. Deeney hits Pickford's face, when the keeper knew nothing about it. The referee disallows Newcastle's goal, etc, etc. It's quite a catalogue of events that have gone against us.

    Of course we cannot blame luck, but when you're only getting bad luck, it does go a long way.

    I don't think we're too far off getting back on track, but our weaknesses are quite severe, and are a big risk in any survival bid. Defensively we've always just about got by, but now it's tipped the wrong side of the line. From what I've seen it's not fit for purpose. We're too ponderous and mistake ridden. It's unlikely to get any better, no matter who the manager/coach is. The players are too old and error prone.

    It stems from poor recruitment in defensive positions and has finally caught up with us. I'm not sure we'll pull this around now as I cannot see how the defence can possibly improve.

    I can see us improving up front and getting a little sharper. We seem to be able to create enough chances to win games, and that's usually the hard bit, so there is some hope, but the defence is so bad, I think it's going to override everything.

    If we go down, I think the entire club has to take its share of the blame. I blame Gracia for having the team so under prepared for the Brighton match, but the crap we have at the back is not down to him, that's down to the entire club.

    We've never really signed quality. We've signed Championship players and hoped the coaches could improve them. This has worked to a degree, but these guys are getting too old and maybe too familiar with the club.

    40 points (or whatever is required) seem a long way off right now, but I think we should all get used to this season being a battle. Fans cannot turn on the side, they have to be patient and understand we're in a difficult moment.
    SkylaRose likes this.
  10. Sting

    Sting Squad Player

    CP changed managers to turn their season around
    WH started with a new manager who has proved their best in the Premiership era - and is somewhat more highly regarded and experienced than Javi.
  11. CarlosKickaballs

    CarlosKickaballs Forum Picarso

    We are also yet to see any evidence of being able to compete with them under Javi
  12. Davidmsawyer

    Davidmsawyer Statto Statto Statto

    I've seen a few stats around that suggest that the new manager bounce doesn't really exist.

    such as this one:

    But what happens is we take a few examples we know about and use them as proof of the concept.
  13. Rookery Refugee

    Rookery Refugee First Year Pro

    I placed a multi-day posting ban on myself so that I could reflect a bit. That let me stop thinking about what I would have done** and think about why Gracia was doing what he did with the side and subs (** TBH, like 99% of us on here, I really don't know a lot - despite how much I'd like to think I do). I wanted to see if I could sort out the logic.

    1) A back 3. This to me screams "Bloody, bloody hell... we have to stop shipping goals. If I have to try and win 1-0 on a set piece, I'll do it, but we can't play wide open with our slow back line. I'll hate it, but I'll do it, because I obviously can't win 4-3 with this lot". Boring but logical.

    2) No Holebas. Holebas has many games where he's not interested in defending and very interested in arguing with his teammates. This makes me think the thoughts were along the lines of "I'm going to put players out there who are going to commit to the system of the day, do what they're told without petulance and work with their mates so we at least communicate well. Besides, sitting him for a match always seems to get his attention". No problem with this, but odd that it wasn't Masina - unless the thinking is that he also thinks mostly about bombing forward. Also Masina hadn't trained much during the week.

    3) Chalobah as a sub.Played well earlier in the week, committed to defending and arguably the best passer in midfield. With Doucoure tired and coming off a knock and Hughes leaving, I need someone who can help the defence and provide link up play.". Seems rational to me - especially since he didn't have to play even a half.

    4) Success over Sarr. Head scratcher here. Can only be that he felt Success would work harder on defending and had better chemistry with the others. Personally I would have... nevermind.. I don't know anything.

    5) Deulofeu. Doesn't defend, but Gray was spent. Needed a goal scorer. Logical.

    I'm still gutted by the result, but there was logic to what he did. I'd pay real money to hear what he said to the team (before and after) and to Gino before and after.

    I'm encouraged that he's not "set in his ways" like we were starting to think. I'd like to believe that anyone who thinks they are entitled to start or play as they like vs. how they've been directed to has been sent a message. If we see a back 3 in the next match, along with Capoue, Deulofeu and Holebas returning to the side, it may be a very interesting game. Arsenal are better than last season but TBF, we should have had them except for the Deeney sending off. If Sarr is ready to do both an attacking and defending job, even better.

    I don't think he's the next Sir Alex, but he seems intelligent, not as inflexible as some think and most of the players play hard for him. I think he'll right the ship.

    Perhaps during the December window we'll sell of 1-2 players (Gray?, ????) and buy some more defenders. For years our problem here has been that we have to defend with at least 6. When we don't do that and push forward, we create a lot more chances but we leak like a sieve. We need more blokes at the back who can run.
  14. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    I think one of the main reasons our current situation seems so alarming is because, should the results broadly go the way we imagine they will in the next three, we're seemingly leaving ourselves with the necessity of putting together a serious winning run at some point in the not-too-distant future; say four in a row(?), to have any chance of surviving.

    The question is, who here has confidence in us being able to do that, either under Javi or a yet-to-be-determined successor?

    My gut feeling is that we just don't do that, and I would be shocked if it wasn't many others' as well, particularly given some of the mentalities and attitudes on show in this squad. I don't know off the top of my head what our record number of successive wins is over this period in the Prem, but I'd honestly be mildly shocked if it was above two.
  15. CleyHorn

    CleyHorn Reservist

    Erm, we won the first four on the trot last season! And I think we did the same once under QSF too.
  16. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    Haha, what an awkward oversight! I wonder what it is apart from that halcyon period.
  17. Squibba

    Squibba Predictor Choker 14/15

    Yep, sell our most reliable goal scorer. Makes sense.
  18. AndrewH63

    AndrewH63 Reservist

    Twelve wins in a season. That's one in three. Beat the three promoted sides at home, that leaves you nine to find. Add in an unexpected result against a big six side at home, that's just eight. For me at the moment it is about avoiding defeat. A run of three draws and a win in our next seven games, would be better than two wins and five defeats.
  19. Rookery Refugee

    Rookery Refugee First Year Pro

    The tallest pygmy.

    That aside, he has some value. You have to give up something to get something of value in return. No one is going to pay us to take the likes of Prodl, Zeegelar or even solid squad players like Cleverley. Up front we have to have Pedro, Cucho, Penaranda, Cassidy, etc. start to come good eventually (i.e. next year) - or again, buy new. I honestly don't see a huge difference between Denney, Welbeck and Gray. They're different, but across the board nothing terribly special. We need cash for defenders from somewhere.
  20. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    Danny Welbeck has 16 goals for England in 26 starts plus 16 sub appearances. Deeney and Gray can't even dream of a record like that.
    Burnsy and Leighton Buzzer like this.
  21. NemoNemo

    NemoNemo First Year Pro

    The lack of width is what is killing us this year. Teams know that we are weak in this position and take full advantage of our full backs being out of position further up the field. The strength of playing with wingers is that a) they are a useful out-ball that can stretch teams and create space for our creative midfielders/strikers & b) it helps to push back the oppositions wide players, meaning less attacking intent because they have someone to worry about. The left/right back of the opposite has nothing to worry about with Femenia & Holebas playing, they never get to the byline.
    Sarr, Deulofeu, Success and even Welbeck can play in this position so we have plenty of options. The blame for not implementing this is on Gracia, that's why he has to leave. It's his fault we are in this position. We are tactics and team selection away from being a decent team. I thought so before the season started and I still think so now.
  22. Knight GT

    Knight GT Predictor extraordinaire 2013/14

    That's an outstanding record full stop
  23. Chumlax

    Chumlax Reservist

    We aren't going to do anything other than get ****** up the ass by City though, at the very least. In our best season since the early 80s, we still couldn't lay a glove on them in the league, and got historically analised in the cup final to boot.
  24. Relegation Certs

    Relegation Certs Squad Player

    Javi Gracia CV

    Career history :
    - Beat Barcelona once
    - World record fa cup final defeat

    Future prospects:
    -World record low Premier league points total.


    Why would any sane person back him?
    NathWFC likes this.
  25. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    I'm sure even Troy could get a few against the likes of Gibraltar and the Maldives.
  26. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    full stop.
  27. WillisWasTheWorst

    WillisWasTheWorst Its making less grammar mistake's thats important

    But he would have to be selected 42 times first.
  28. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    At one point in the second half v Newcastle there wasn't a single Watford player that wasn't in the penalty areas or the space between - both flanks were empty and we were attacking.
  29. Leighton Buzzer

    Leighton Buzzer Reservist

    No, you don't need two full stops.
  30. K9 Hornet

    K9 Hornet Academy Graduate

    I'm imagining the pitch as a tennis court, where we are playing singles and they are playing doubles with the tramlines only in play for them.
    Poor analogy I suppose but ho hum
    Robert Peel likes this.
  31. Robert Peel

    Robert Peel Reservist

    It was exactly that. Christ I wish I could have explained it that easily.

    Narrow doesn't begin to cover it.
    K9 Hornet likes this.
  32. GoingDown

    GoingDown Pizza & Figs

    Now he's joined us, he won't be adding to those 42 caps.

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