Keep, Bench, Sell

Discussion in 'The Transfer List' started by NathWFC, May 12, 2019.

  1. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    Keep (generally first choice or competing for first choice)
    Capoue
    Foster
    Holebas
    Deeney
    Hughes
    Chalobah
    Femenia
    Quina

    Squad (back up option)
    Cathcart (on the whole we can trust him, think he is just about Premier League class, but I'd still like to bring in an upgrade or two)
    Mariappa (definitely shouldn't be in the first team next year, but will be happy enough for him to stick around)
    Gray (do like him, but if we are to kick on post this season, we'll need someone better)
    Cleverley
    Bachmann
    Wilmot
    Peñaranda (hard to say, but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt with a proper pre-season)

    Sell
    Success
    Kabasele (a notch above Mariappa IMO, but neither good enough, at least Mariappa is one of us and is probably happier to sit on the bench)
    Sema
    Masina (hard one, not played much but the threat of replacing Holebas has really pushed him on. Not fully convinced when he has played and with Holebas getting on in age, we'll need some fresh blood starting at LB eventually)
    Okaka
    Sinclair
    Navarro
    Zeegelaar
    Foulquier

    Release
    Britos
    Prodl
    Gomes (hopefully there'll be a place on the coaching staff for him)
    Hoban

    Loan
    Hernandez
    Dahlberg
    Pedro
    Stuparevic
    +a million other players that I've never heard of inevitably

    Club could sell but I would rather retain
    Deulofeu (probably the most likely out of our big guns to stay)
    Janmaat
    Doucoure
    Pereyra

    Genuinely not sure on Lukebakio, I'd like him around, but does he want to come back to us?
     
  2. Bore

    Bore Reservist

    Couple of things

    Chalobah was excellent at Chelsea so not sure why a few are recommending out on loan. A good pre season and he can fit in midfield with Capoue when Doucoure goes.

    We would be crazy to sell Lukabkio B4 giving him a go. We would get 20m for him today - if he scored a few in the premiership he would be worth 35m by Xmas
     
    EB Hornet and Supertommymooney like this.
  3. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Same arguments made about Chalobah at end of last season.
     
  4. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    A decent proportion of the championship playoff centre backs are superior to ours. It’s incredible how much Pozzo has neglected the position to have Kabasele and Mariappa as 2nd/3rd choice in season 4 of premier league money.
     
  5. carboy98

    carboy98 First Year Pro

    Priority has to be one or two centre back upgrades. This has been the case for most of human history, will it finally be addressed this summer?.

    I think we need another high level attacker to add to the mix - either a winger or striker. Also, Lukebakio plays a role if he's good enough for the Prem, has been great on loan.

    There would be a few "nice to haves" but I think they above two positions are what we must do in order to improve on this season.

    I'm resigned to Doucoure leaving but I'm sure the Pozzos will have a replacement in mind, as it's been on the cards for a while now.

    Imperative that we keep hold of Deulefeu; and replace Pereyra if he goes.

    Can't wait for the obscure rumours to start rolling in!
     
  6. PowerJugs

    PowerJugs Doyley Fanatic

    Goalkeepers:

    Foster - Keep

    Gomes - Keep

    Dahlberg - Loan

    Bachmann - Bench

    Defenders:

    Holebas - Keep

    Masina - Keep

    Zeegelaar - Sell

    Britos - Sell

    Kabasele - Bench

    Cathcart - Keep

    Mariappa - Bench

    Prodl - Sell

    Wilmot - Keep

    Navarro - Loan

    Femenia - Keep

    Janmaat - Keep

    Foulquier - Sell

    Midfielders:

    Capoue - Keep

    Doucoure - Keep (Unlikely)

    Chalobah - Keep

    Cleverley - Keep

    Hughes - Keep

    Pereyra - Sell

    Quina - Keep

    Sema - Bench

    Forwards:

    Deeney - Keep

    Gray - Bench

    Deulofeu - Keep

    Success - Bench

    Penaranda - Bench

    'Cucho' Hernandez - Keep

    Lukebakio - Bench

    Okaka - Sell

    Total:

    Goalkeepers:

    2 Keep, 1 Bench, 1 Loan

    Defenders:

    6 Keep, 2 Bench, 4 Sell, 1 Loan

    Midfielders:

    6 Keep, 1 Bench, 1 Sell

    Forwards:

    3 Keep, 4 Bench, 1 Sell
     
  7. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    It's a matter of whether or not he's suited to the Premier League. On very limited showing here, he was judged either not ready or not suited.

    A half season of being on our bench and then looking lightweight or out of his depth in games and that £20m turns into loan with a view to a £6-8m fee.

    Basically, if he's a £20m starter for a Bundesliga side, or a fringe punt for us, better to sell him and invest in someone we really need, no?
     
    Vanhorn17 and Jumbolina like this.
  8. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Re. Doucoure, I'd have liked to see more of Quina in the closing stages of the season. He's looked ace when he's played, though I understood why he's been wrapped in cotton wool and I think he had a shoulder injury in April, however, if Chalobah gets fit to his potential and we keep Capoue, between Chalobah, Capoue, Qiuna and Cleverley, we're good at centre mid in my opinion. It comes down to Chalobah's fitness, ultimately.
     
  9. carboy98

    carboy98 First Year Pro

    I do agree, I'm a big fan of Quina too - not just as a 'promising youngster' but a player for now.

    Chalobah just seems risky to rely on at the moment. Javi sees him every day so will obviously have a better idea than us. I think I would be fine with us going into the season with the players you've mentioned (assuming Chalobah is raring to go), as long as other areas get proper investment.

    I wonder if Wilmott will be in Javi's plans more next season, and as a CB or a CM. Looks like he only got picked for 4 appearances over in Udinese, but Javi seemed to be a fan.
     
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  10. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    I think Javi's opinion of Chabs must be tempered by the fact that Doucoure and Capoue have been no brainers to start whenever they're available, though the absence of Nath from the bench does seem to endorse your view.
     
  11. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Have to disagree there. Chalobah is still a big "if", Cleverley isn't good enough in a two for where we want to be, Quina is still a kid who I'm also not sure has the legs to work well enough in a two (he'd be best at the tip of a diamond), and Capoue is reaching an age where I'd start getting concerned that he won't be able to keep up his heroics indefinitely.

    We'd be back in the situation of being one injury or suspension away from being screwed in that position. I'd look to sign another early-20s, Doucoure-esque punt at around £8mil from the French leagues who can have a season of getting used to the league before longer term being ready to replace Capoue and/or Doucoure, because there's no guarantee that any of the other lot are up to the task.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  12. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I agree with most of Nath's suggestions, but I'd still try as much as possible to hang on to Doucoure (unless a truly ridiculous offer comes in). It's really not set in stone that he'll leave. For one thing, PSG, who he'd been most linked with, have just signed Herrera on a free. I can't see any other Champion's League clubs offering us the £40mil+ he's worth tbh. Probably Everton will sniff around again, but we can tell them to do one.

    Pereyra is the only one of our higher profile players I'd sell. He's been poor for too long now. Lukebakio is worth giving a go in this league. I'd still sign 1 other winger though capable of playing on the right wing, but ideally either. Between Lukebakio, Hughes, Deulofeu and 1 other we should be fine across the two wing spots.

    Bachmann should be given a chance in the cups to see if he can replace Foster.

    I'd sign:
    1 or 2 CBs,
    1 versatile winger, though who prefers the right (as well as keeping Lukebakio)
    1 "younger Doucoure" type CM to learn/rotate over the season
    1 striker

    However, in January I wouldn't be surprised if we also needed a new first choice GK and new first choice LB, in case Foster and Holebas' declines turn out to be irreversible.
     
  13. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    You say Chalobah is a ‘big if’ but it was stated clearly at the fan event that’s not the case. They are very confident he will get back to his best but it’s just a case of building up the muscle, strength and fitness and that’s a process that doesn’t happen quickly. Chalobah himself even stated recently he’s free of the injury but is just not fit.

    I suspect he could have been rushed into being 80% ready for quite a few recent months but the club have seen Capoue and Doucoure’s form and have allowed Chalobah the best route back to full fitness.
     
  14. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Fixed for you.
     
  15. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Maybe. We'll see.

    One other thing about Chalobah, which I don't really know the answer to exactly, and probably you don't either, but my impression is that he works better with Doucoure than Capoue. Capoue and Chalobah together could be a bit slow on the ball and also not pose as much of an attacking threat.
     
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  16. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Lots of people saying bring back Bachmann after the season he’s had. Let’s temper that with the fact he’s been playing in the Scottish league. I’d rather send him out to a Championship club for a year now and see if he can establish himself.

    Dahlberg has been around the squad for a year now and is clearly the more thought of GK. it’s he who should be given a push IMO. Already played a season in the Swedish league which must be on a par with the SPL anyway.
     
  17. carboy98

    carboy98 First Year Pro

    True, it did seem to only be around the time of the PSG links that he appeared to be pushing for a move. Maybe he can be persuaded to stay for another season, if PSG aren't interested any more.

    On the other hand, from the analysis by Swiss Ramble of our accounts, it does seem to be the case that we need to make a big sale every couple of seasons to balance the books. So it could be best for both parties to engineer a big move.
     
  18. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Cucho does not appear ready for the EPL.

    Lukebakio could play alongside Deeney, but I don't think he'd do any better in that role than Gray or Deulofeu. Similar at best. I'd rather try and use him on the wing (and also get an upgrade on Deeney).
     
  19. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    If we have to make a sale, Pereyra would be the preferable option - even if it's just for more like £20mil.
     
  20. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    Guess it’s all it what you see from the limited footage and reports available.

    Personally, I think Cucho has more ability than Lukebakio and is more what we need. He’s more in the mould of Deeney and we don’t have a direct replacement for him. I’d argue he’s more ready for the PL than Lukebakio.

    We have 2 or 3 already who can play alongside Deeney. But we have no one who can replace him.
     
    PowerJugs likes this.
  21. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Cucho isn't that guy either. He's started 5 of the last 6 games on the bench - and this is for the side bottom of La Liga. Also, when he has played this season it's usually been shoved out to the left of a front three in a 4-3-3, rather than as their centre forward - or sometimes in a front two, but scoring fewer goals than the other forward. It hardly screams of someone ready to make an impact as a number 9 for a mid-table Prem club, does it?!
    Given his size he doesn't offer much in the way of hold-up play or aerial threat, and he doesn't look any quicker than Gray. He could come good, but he's got a way to go.

    Even if Cucho has more potential, which I'm not sure about, Lukebakio is definitely further ahead in his development..
     
  22. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    He hasn’t ‘often’ been shoved out wide left. Everything else you say could well be right but I think he’s far more suited in stature and profile to the PL and what we need as a squad.

    Where I do agree is that Lukebakio caught up in terms of progress last season - but that’s one season. Cucho’s progress and promise has been greater over a period of time. Where the club perhaps slipped up was letting Cucho stay at Huesca because he felt good there - they were obviously going to struggle and he should have been told to join one of the more hopeful La Liga sides who were interested. As with Peneranda and Success, we often get these choices of club wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  23. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    We could do with another goalscoring winger as much as a new centre forward. I can't see how Cucho could even be expected to be as effective as Gray. At this stage in his development, and with his style of play, he'll probably be about as useful as Success (but with less annoying diving).
     
  24. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Fyi, Success scored 6 goals in his first season in La Liga with Granada (2015/6) which he began at the age of 19, and Penaranda got 5 in the same season at the age of 18. Both players also clearly have ability, but have struggled to make much of an impression with us. Cucho got 4 goals in a similar amount of appearances. He seems very much at a similar level of ability to Success and Penaranda, and is no further in his development either. It's a bit nuts to think he could have a big impact while neither of the other two have yet; especially as a main CF, which in "stature and profile" he doesn't seem suited to.

    Cucho did well in La Liga 2, but that's not really saying much.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  25. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    I never said he’d have a ‘big impact’?

    I said he has a better profile for what the squad needs in terms of the fact that I believe we need to start looking at someone who can take Deeney’s place. While unlikely he stays for the full term, our manager has a long term contract and has made his preferred tactics pretty clear. On that basis, we need foil for Deeney. Cucho is more suited to that.

    I think he has not promise for what we need as a squad at this time, that’s all. Quite frankly, I’d like them both to join. But I suspect the owners might be tempted to let Lukebakio join a Bundesliga team for decent money this summer.
     
  26. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Based on how Penaranda and Success have done after showing similar levels of promise, Cucho would be no better a foil for Deeney at this moment in time than Gray already is. Also, Cucho doesn't play as a lead the line striker for Huesca. He also lacks hold-up ability or aerial threat. How you can conclude he'd be much use to us right now is still completely beyond me. It's one thing just being able to play as a striker, it's another to actually be any good at it. Profile wise, theoretically Success should also be a decent foil for Deeney, but he's limited by the fact that he still doesn't really do anything when on the pitch, and thus he hardly gets any minutes.

    PS. while thinking about our youth prospects who'll unlikely make the grade here, Stuparevic has more of a profile than Cucho of potentially being an all-round number 9 one day. Still only 18 though.
     
  27. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Whilst my heart sinks when Success trundles on and observing his growing girth, it would be interesting to see him actually start 5 games on the bounce.

    Edit: dunno is such indulgence can happen in these premier league days though
     
  28. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I agree that his development would be helped by regular starts. It's not going to happen here though. A year on loan in the Championship could be good for him, so he can hopefully re-learn where the net is. Or perhaps he could go on loan to a struggling PL club once January comes around, say the equivalent of Cardiff this season.
     
  29. Jumbolina

    Jumbolina First Team

    Big chance of a sulk if he goes to championship. I just think his attitude will cost him at end of the day. He probably has enough on this contract to live pretty well for life if he isn’t a moron. 5 year deal plus extension.
     
  30. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    Nah, I do think he has bucked up his ideas in this last season and become more professional off the pitch. He's seemed fit and sharp when required, and also shared in the celebrations when the team has scored etc.

    It's more his confidence and mentality on the pitch that's now an issue - he has plenty of ability, but just seems to have very little understanding of how to use it in a productive way. His positional awareness, decision making, and composure in front of goal, need a heck of a lot of training. He could also in general do with learning how to be more direct (and staying on his feet) and getting more familiar with doing so.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  31. Burnsy

    Burnsy Squad Player

    You either are missing the point of what I’m saying or somehow I’m still not being clear.

    I am not saying he’d be amazing for us straight away. But throughout his career so far, Cucho has played almost exclusively as a No.9. Not as a tall target man, but as a strong and pacy central striker. That’s just a fact. He’s not often been utilised as a No.10 or brought out wide - it’s happened, but it’s been sparing. You can relate him to Success and Peneranda in terms of promise (which may or may not be fulfilled) but the PROFILE of the type of attacker they are is different. Cucho has spent his time learning his trade playing in the same position as Deeney and had similar attributes. The others you mention haven’t.

    I’m not eulogising about Cucho and insisting he will be a success. I’m saying he would be coming in in a position that the squad is weak in and only has one current first team player for - Lukebakio would not be. Stuparevic is another to consider for the role I’m describing as you mentioned.

    Gray isn’t a foil for Deeney. He’s been used as such at times because we haven’t had another striker with the attributes of Deeney. Square pegs, round holes. Their games and attributes are quite different. Cucho does lack ariel ability due to his height - but you are wrong when you say he doesn’t play as a lead striker and doesn’t hold the ball up. He’s very much in the Rooney/Vardy mould in that respect. They are quick and strong but not thrown out wide. You can argue that if you like, and I like the debate (certainly not a bitter argument!) - but you are a bit off in your synopsis of the player.

    All this aside, I’ve wondered at times this season....when and under what circumstances do we give Cassidy a chance?
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  32. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    I'm sure Dahlberg would like to start playing games now rather than just sit on the bench though, Bachmann is probably more #2 material
     
  33. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    Probably only an injury crisis like when we saw some of the youngsters under Mazzarri. Would like to see what he can do, but not in a similar situation!
     
  34. Hogg-DEENEY!!!

    Hogg-DEENEY!!! First Year Pro

    It's not that I want Pereyra gone, but if he's not interested, why keep him?
     
  35. lowerrous

    lowerrous Squad Player

    I do get your point, I think that we disagree in the assessment of Cucho's style of play, but also in his overall quality at this moment in time, regardless of his position. I still think he's not "strong and pacy" enough to be a "strong and pacy central striker" at this level. If he has similar attributes to Deeney it's in being stocky, but not especially prolific at the top level so far. Even if Gray is a square peg in a round hole when being a replacement for Deeney (which I don't think he is entirely), I still think he does a better job in that role than Cucho would for a while. While we lose something when Gray is up top in our attacking play sometimes appearing a bit less cohesive, we gain something in having somebody actually able to stick the ball in the net. As we saw against West Ham, with Gray off the pitch we often fall in to the trap of playing some lovely slick build-up play around the box, but then not having anyone to put the finishing touch to the move.

    Say if Pereyra was injured but we still wanted to play 4-4-2, I'd still rather stick Hughes, Capoue or Success out on the left than Sema, even if he's more naturally suited to that position, because he's still just not very good at contributing from there. Likewise, say if somehow Deeney, Gray and Success all got injured before the final, I'd still go with a formation that had Deulofeu as a false 9, only being supported by our first team midfielders, rather than chucking Cassidy in alongside him, because he's not ready yet. A more ready player as a "square peg" can be more useful than a less ready player as a "round peg".

    As a side-note, I also suspect that Cassidy won't make it here as anything more than a squad option. He seems decent, but there doesn't appear to be any kind of stand-out attributes to his game. Out of all our young striker prospects Stuparevic is the one I'm somehow most hopeful for. Also Joao Pedro, though his position still seems more ambiguous. I also think Lukebakio should do well for us, but rather as a winger.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019

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