Now by no means is he the sole person responsible for the mess we are in, but I would say failure to sack him this week will lead to our relegation. The defence is bad personnel wise, you can’t deny the club have let him down in that regard. But Jesus Christ structurally they are all over the place, there are so many tell tale signs of poor coaching. A system which puts so much pressure on the centre backs is suicidal and the obsession with certain favourites is painful to see. Holebas is clearly done at the top level, three teams have now successfully targeted him for final half hour of games, with only Everton failing to add more goals in this time through Walcott’s terrible delivery. The problem now is that it’s inevitable his time is up, even if we win at Newcastle, we’re not beating city arsenal or wolves. It’s delaying the inevitable as we have to sack him after those defeats. The most disappointing part of the Javi reign has been the complete inability to give the big six any sort of match the way QSF, Mazzari and Silva did. He’s a nice guy who we warmed to after the way the snake treated us, but you take away the cup runs and we’ve really not evolved much at all. We’re now regressing fast. It’s honestly painful to watch how naively he sets up the team. People say it’s different if Hughes scores, but what about Yarmolenko missing from a yard out, Fosters wonder double save. It could have been a lot more again. This is the worst Watford side I have seen defensively in the prem, much worse than 06/07 and that was awful. He has to go and it has to be now. All likelihood is this ends with a defeat at Newcastle next week, but given the run we have after that it’s all probably too little too late. Naivety across the board will send us down. Which is a crying shame given off the pitch where we’ve got ourselves to.
There's a lot of short memories on this forum as well as myths spouted out as fact. Let's breakdown the results a bit. Quique Sanchez Flores league results vs Top Six Man City: L 2-0 & L 1-2 Arsenal: L 0-3 & L 4-0 Man Utd: L 1-2 & L 1-0 Liverpool: W 3-0 & L 2-0 Chelsea: D 2-2 & D 0-0 Spurs: L 1-2 & L 1-0 Wins: 1 Draws: 2 Losses: 9 POINTS: 5 So Quique got one sole 3-0 victory against Liverpool who if I remember correctly did have Adam Bogdan in goal. Also, if memory serves me correctly he played a horrible 3-7-0 against Man City. I think there was a cup win against Arsenal in there too. Walter Mazzarri league results vs Top Six Chelsea: L 1-2 & L 4-3 Arsenal: L 1-3 & W 1-2 Man Utd: W 3-1 & L 2-0 Liverpool: L 6-1 & L 0-1 Man City: L 2-0 & 0-5 Spurs: L 1-4 & L 4-0 Wins: 2 Draws: o Losses: 10 POINTS: 6 So in short, Mazzarri won one more and lost one more whilst drawing none leaving him with SIX points from 12 games against the top six. The glory result being the protest on the last game of the season with two goalkeepers on the bench. Zuniga's winner was pretty epic that day though. Marco Silva league results vs Top Six Liverpool: D 3-3 Man City: L 0-6 & L 3-1 Arsenal: W 2-1 Chelsea: L 4-2 Man Utd: L 2-4 Spurs: D 1-1 Wins: 1 Draws: 2 Losses: 4 POINTS: 5 So by the looks of things Silva probably would've bettered both QSF & WM's records by it's no secret things were doing well under him till Everton came calling. Now I'm tired and starting to care less and less about my original point so I won't go into his results one by one but a quick overview for Javi shows just the sole 4-1 win against Chelsea and losses to Liverpool, Arsenal, United & Spurs to wrap up the 17-18 season. In 18-19 a sole victory against Spurs and losses in every other fixture we played against the big six. So in 17 games, Javi has two wins and 15 losses against the top six teams with Liverpool & Man City being on a different planet under his time here IMO. So for me, Javi is just on par with the other manager before in regards to results against the big six (apart from MS) and I really don't see why it should be something that he should be measured by. He won 14 Premier League games in his one full season here, more than QSF and more than Walter so judging by that he has been more of a success. Fact. Lastly, I don't know about you but I like to go by feelings when watching football. QSF made me not want to renew my season ticket and Walter made me not want to go to games. It was honestly painful at time how bad we were, I haven't felt that once under Javi apart from Brighton at the start of this season. Even the West Ham game was entertaining, we got into the opposition's box and it wasn't unbearable to watch so for that reason alone I'm willing to give him till Christmas to make some progress. It won't be too late by then and he's earned it. Of course, if it continues to drastically nosedive, then fire him but he deserves the chance to fix it.
Another Javi out thread? Like I said in the Dawson thread, the only way to sort this out is to get a defensive minded coach in, drill the dross at the back into a half decent unit and go from there. Midfield is our strongest asset with our blunt mis kicking foward line next. But the defence is what prevents losses, and that needs attention. Yes I do blame Javi for sub times, dreadful formations and tired same team selection. Could or would a new manager change that?
Yep. People keep starting new threads as they think they've stumbled across a really original hot take that a manager who's lost seven in a row might need to be sacked soon.
I'm going to but I just need to compose a really long opening post to explain how I got to this earth shattering conclusion ahead of anyone else.
It’s not the quality it’s the quantity. It’s well known that Gino monitors the number of ‘out’ threads on this forum to decide the exact moment to pull the trigger.
Never mind the miserable happy clappers, you start a thread if you want to start a thread. You're right. I didn't buy the bull**** after the Everton game about how we were unlucky, if you look at the heat map there were gaps in our structure you could steer an oil taker through. I'd have fired him after last week. Leaving it until the first international break may leave us with a mountain to climb. On the upside, if you're a Udinese fan, I imagine it's hilarious.
When clubs start appointing specialist coaches (defence/attack/shooting), it’s never a good look and rarely works. I’d argue it undermines the head coach somewhat as well. I’m leaving on the side of giving Gracia a bit more time. But things need to change and there were some very alarming signs yesterday.
One of the reasons that Javi was appointed was that after the disastrous run under Silva we needed someone who could in, study the opposition and work out how to get some points off them. He famously got points off of both Barca and Real with a very limited Malaga side, an arguably tougher task with what would’ve been a weaker team against better opposition than say Chelsea Spurs or Arsenal. I think the point is and the problem people have is that we have seen zero evidence of this ability, if anything as you’ve evidenced above his record against big teams is no better than any previous manager and probably just about the worst If you’re failing miserably against the big teams, but then suddenly losing at home to Brighton and West Ham, were exactly are you getting results from? Where has this famous ability to study the opposition gone?
Again - another myth just being spouted as truth. Firstly, study the opposition and work how to get some points off them is quite literally the definition of a head coaches job. Secondly, do you think Gino hired him because he got points off Barca & Real and the main quality we were looking for was someone to get us plucky 1-0’s against the top six? Highly doubt it. Nobody knows why he was brought in, as a community ourselves we recognised his results against Barca, Gino or Scott have not come out and referenced it once. I could just as easily say he was hired because he smiles a lot and aggerbohr last few managers we wanted a smiley one. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.90min.com/posts/6163732...ga-shows-what-he-can-do-with-unbeaten-watford However, all this belies the fact that Gracia is a manager built for the Premier League, tactically and methodically, with a history of overachieving, developing talent and a reputation for giant killings. That he achieved such league finishes under the circumstances is remarkable, but what's even more impressive is that during his two-season spell with Malaga between 2014 and 2016, no team had a better record against Spain's top three. El Paisdescribed Gracia's Malaga side as 'pure chloroform' for Barcelona. In 2014/15, they were the only team to play Barcelona and not be beaten. Across two games, they even took four points from six and failed to concede at all against the European champions who routed Juventus in Berlin at the end of the campaign. "I do enjoy that tactical challenge but we do that for every game whether it is Barcelona or Leganes," Gracia told Sky Sports.
See my latest post, I think they hired him because he looked like a tactically astute coach, if you can work out how to take points off of big teams like Barca and real with a limited squad surely you can’t be anything else? Did he look like a tactically astute coach yesterday? Lately have we played in anyway like we’ve made any sort of allowances for how the opposition might play and equally how they might choose to exploit our own weaknesses?
You often make excellent contributions to the forum, but this is very strange. So, you are saying, Javi wasn't appointed because of results in charge of previous teams? Yes. Being able to study opponents and adjust your tactics accordingly is every head coaches job. Is it not possible that Gino recognised this as something Javi was particularly good at?
Has he forgotten how to be tactically astute? Unlikely. I think player power is impacting things at the minute.
No I’m saying he wasn’t appointed because of results against Barca & Madrid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
So you’re saying that the fact he managed to take four points off of Real and not concede a goal with a side worse than he’s got with us, would’ve had no bearing on their opinion about how good and capable coach he is/could be for us?
I think he's gone backwards since being at Watford. When he first arrived, he steadied the ship. We were going down under Silva, but he turned it around. Ok, the away form was poor and we didn't score a single goal, but I thought at the time that was just one of those crazy anomalies, which it turned out to be just that. The beginning of last season we looked very good. Tactically excellent, and had a plan for every opponent. Our freekick routines were really inventive. The only question mark I had over him was his substitutions, but he even improved that over time as well. He was doing well and looked every bit the coach I thought he was. Now, for some unknown reason, we've gone back to that inflexible, predictable and totally easy to play against side that EVERY club wants to play. The same team we were under Silva. I think the prospect of playing Arsenal, City and Wolves after the Newcastle game, intensifies the situation. Even if we beat Newcastle, and that's a big if as I think Joelinton will destroy us, we'll still only have 3 points after 7 games, in all likelihood. Will that be enough for him to keep his job? There's a real possibility of being on ZERO points after 7 games. I know Palace stayed up comfortably from that situation, but they did sack their manager after the first 4 games. Personally I think he could be gone after the Coventry match, no matter what happens in that game. He's not using the squad enough. He's sticking to a formation that's not working. Why not play Quina more? Why not give Chalobah some game time? Why is he sticking to the same back four? Why isn't Janmaat featuring more? I do have sympathy for him, as a lot of our squad is not great. But a decent coach can create a solid defence with average players. If you employ a "they shall not pass" attitude and make defenders defend. We don't have players that can play it out from the back, so I'm glad at least we've stopped doing that. Our defenders are Championship standard, but they can be more solid as a unit. We gift so much space and are so open. 18 games without a clean sheet is ridiculous. In that time we've conceded 41 goals!! 41 GOALS.....OMG. He's not been able to find a solution to rectify that problem. Going forward, I think we'll be fine, and it's not his fault why we keep missing very good chances. But maybe training has to change, so players are more comfortable in front of goal. They never seem to get their feet right, or take too many touches. It's something they all do, and it's so frustrating to watch. We make it look like scoring goals is the hardest thing in the world, but conversely our opponents have the easiest time in doing it. Something does have to change, and quickly. For me, now is the time. Something radical has to happen. Be it a change of coach, system, squad rotation or whatever, something has to change. We cannot continue down this road anymore.
Could it be the run of fixtures hasn't been kind. Brighton was a one off display with a combination of over confidence/ complacency and new manager syndrome for Brighton, west ham are a top half team and we lost in similar manner last season and losing 1 nil away to Everton is not a disaster. In that run at the end of last season we lost to wolves and west ham at home and Chelsea away again not unexpected but disappointing. Looks bad but that could have happened in any season. What is clear is our defenders are neither big physical units or with any pace and as a collective there seems to be a lack of leadership, communication and pride in keeping a clean sheet. Would prefer kabasele who has a bit more pace given another go and janmaat. System in midfield doesn't utilise our players to their best, Hughes much better more central and chalobah regarded by the owners as our best midfielder given more game time. As for the subs far too late and surely if sarr your record signing by far has to come on with more than 10 mins to go. Albeit I thought we played quite well for the first hour yesterday. Only positive right now is that a pozzo team never been relegated.
Are we really going to now clutch at straws so much as to say the run of fixtures hasn't been kind? We've played Brighton, Everton and West Ham, two of which have been at home, not Man City, Liverpool and Spurs. Also Brighton wasn't a one off display, we were almost just as **** yesterday.
You cannot be blind to the opening run of fixtures as being tough. They were/are. But clearly we should be picking up at least 7 points from our first 7 games. That will not happen now, unless a radical upturn in fortunes occurs overnight.
The only reason I dont want him sacked immediately, is because the problems with recruitment will continue as Gino tries to find an even more pliable buffoon to try and mould a silk purse out of the sow's poo of our defenders. Javi needs to show he's willing to change personnel, tactics and to make more quick, decisive subs. His inability to use his squad and his hand sitting, when everyone in the stadium can see a change is needed in a game, make it hard to defend him as a coach.
The only way for this appalling situation to be resolved is for decisive action to be taken by the mods and six threads merged into one.
Yep absolutely, do these people get paid for opening threads on precisely the same subject, but with a slightly different title? Why can't the mods tidy this forum up a bit?
Gonna be dismissed as a happy clapper, but yeah, there's some truth to that. Everton and West Ham will be over the hills and far away, only Brighton may be in that group with us flirting with relegation (and, as disappointing as that game was, it was players missing and 4-4-2). He at least changed it up a bit for the West Ham game, with a few players still out, and we did look more threatening (and I'm sure we'll improve on that going forward when we have everyone available). He's been left with a poor CB partnership, and that's not something he can be blamed for, but I do think he should perhaps look to change the full-backs. Holebas looks like his age is catching up with him (and we know it, or else we wouldn't have tried to get Rose), and Femenia is stuck in the overlapping mindset which lands his partners in trouble too often. Masina is no great shakes, but he's alright, and a step up on Holebas at the moment, and ditto for Janmaat and Femenia. I've said my bit, we'll be fine going forward, it's a question of whether we can squeeze anything else out of the defence. I don't think Javi is the biggest problem at all, but obviously Newcastle is a huge game now
Maybe. Probably. Leventhal has said something on his new website thing that mirrors what SSN are saying as well though.
