Ivic Out

Discussion in 'The Hornets' Nest - Watford Chat' started by wfcmoog, Oct 28, 2020.

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  1. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Sannino and Mazzarri were sacked because players didn’t get on with them behind the scenes. I’m sensing similar with Ivic - or at the very best, there’s apathy towards him.
     
  2. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Bilic has shown he’s suited and can work in this country with success. Whilst Ivic perhaps hasn’t had the time to prove otherwise, I don’t think he’s suited to the English game.

    Anyway, Allardyce is who I’d go for. Or Silva.

    Would swallow my pride with both begrudgingly.
     
  3. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    Away from home yeah. We must be doing some things right at home. We won 3-2 twice. Doesn't scream of impotence to me. If that description was accurate as a whole we would be bottom 3.
     
  4. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    You'll be in luck then if true. He wont manage us next season.
     
  5. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    But again, firstly winning 3-2 is hardly a masterclass of effectiveness - we managed to scramble a random winner in games we were never in control of - but more than that, and to the point, some results in isolation do not tell the whole story - I could equally say we drew to the team in 18th and so we are very very bad and should be concerned about being drawn into the relegation mix - I'm not saying that, what I am saying is that based on the way we are playing as a team and the players are performing individually, we are ineffective in attack, and we can see that more and more in recent games.

    Even in those 3-2 games, how many of the goals we scored were the result of incisive attacking play, or even a direct striker that wasn't a dead ball or an opposing defender kicking it off Gray's shinpad?
     
  6. Manatleisure

    Manatleisure Squad Player

    You might be expecting a bit too much from this squad of players I think in a league famous for being difficult to get out of. Best to be more warmly when the wins come.

    It's good for the heart.:)
     
  7. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    Nothing about this team is good for my heart.
     
  8. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Why would I ‘be in luck’?

    I’ve already said I’m willing to give him more time. I’m just a bit more realistic and honest about what is being played out in front of my eyes than you’re willing to be I think.

    Using our league position as defence for him is fair enough - but it feels a bit like the last ‘positive’ thing to go off. As I say, it’s fair enough - but there’s lots of negatives right now which are getting harder and harder to ignore however much you try.
     
  9. YellowKicks

    YellowKicks Squad Player

    I really can’t believe we ****ed up the appointment again but we really did. Doesn’t suit the league at all and the players clearly don’t respond to him at all. I dare say Pearson would have us playing a hell of a lot better than this rubbish.

    We have to change before it’s too late, 12 games and genuinely not a good performance under the boring fart.
     
  10. I Blame Pozzo

    I Blame Pozzo First Team

    Oh give me strength!
    Do we really?
    How can we get it so wrong?
    I know,experience!
     
  11. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    I have no faith that we will be promoted under Ivic. The football is dirge and I don't think the team know what to do half the time.
     
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  12. a19tgg

    a19tgg First Team

    First half was encouraging second half was equally discouraging.

    We severely lack confidence and a killer instinct,
    Bristol are a much better team than QPR but it was essentially the same game played out again, start well and gradually retreat into our shells.

    Despite what anyone says we do have better players than the opposition, that tends to show at the start but if we don’t score, or even if we do, they seem to just gradually give up as the game goes on.

    Sarr is a great example of the team as whole, we saw last season he has the talent and the pace to run at the opposition and scare them, he seems scared to do it now.

    The whole team just seem to need the confidence to start as they mean to go on, Ivic only seems capable of keeping them interested for 60/70% of the first half.
     
  13. wfcwarehouse

    wfcwarehouse First Team Captain

    Bristol City were distinctly average for most of the game last night, and very much there for the taking.

    Shame Gray has the touch of a rapist and couldn’t trap a block of cement, let alone a football. Are we seriously going to play him week in, week out, hoping he comes good? As the old saying goes you can’t polish a turd.

    Credit to Ivic for the change of system but I do wonder whether it was enforced rather than out of a desire to do something else following the COVID-19 outbreak at the club.

    The next five games provide an opportunity for us to build up some steam. If we don’t see more than 10-12 points out of them, then IMO, we have a problem.
     
  14. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    Agreed. I don't know anyone can have any belief in this guy. We did nothing in the final 3rd despite playing £30m Sarr, £18m Gray,and what was it, £10m? Pedro upfront. Cathcart has our best chance. He seems to believe we can win matches with possession %s without bothering to try to score. The same at QPR, a goal from a defender then just try to keep the ball for 85 mins. Appalling tactics.
     
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  15. hornetboy1

    hornetboy1 First Team Captain

    When you consider this.....the forward line we started with yesterday cost us around £58m!! That's just bonkers.

    We all know Sarr is a player, but for whatever reason he's really struggling under Ivic. Our game plan has to be entirely centred on getting the best out of Sarr and Pedro on the flanks. 3-5-2 doesn't even come close, which is what we've played all season bar last night. Ivic has been far too rigid in his thinking, but finally went with 4-3-3 and the shape looked a lot better, even though we still didn't cause any problems.

    I think Ivic has to have a major rethink on his formation and number one striker (which seems to be Gray). We need Deeney and Perica to share the duties as target men. Gray can be used as an impact sub, but nothing more than that.
     
  16. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    No problem with 1 yr and reviewing after that. Changing now is ridiculous. We have an ageing forward line, and will need to build again. Constant chopping and changing is one of the reasons we went down.
     
  17. leighton buzzard horn

    leighton buzzard horn Squad Player

    I have no faith we will be promoted with this squad regardless of who the head coach is.
     
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  18. domthehornet

    domthehornet Moderator Staff Member

    Very true, a bunch of prima Donnas who know they can get managers sacked by doing the bare minimum.
     
  19. wfc4ever

    wfc4ever Administrator Staff Member

    I think last night we tried to score more but never looked likely.

    You are right - al that potential and cost up front and it’s probably playing the most powder puff in the league !

    Particularly away from home.

    You’d be disappointed with 3 goals away from home at the best of times - let alone with Sarr and other players who have scored goals at Championship level.
     
  20. GoingDown

    GoingDown "The Stability"

    We haven't built again for 5 years when we had PL money.
     
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  21. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    He’s still went to 3 at the back when Ngakia went off and decided Quina would make a decent RWB. Reverted to type when he had the option of maintaining the shape and putting Navarro on as a straight swap for Ngakia.

    I’m in a weird state of flux with Ivic - I want to give him another couple of games. Yet I’m convinced nothing will change so I don’t really see the point in delaying what I feel is inevitable either.
     
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  22. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    I think there’s elements of truth in this. But the head coach simply hasn’t helped himself either.

    If the players are prima-donna’s, they need a leader who will tell them constantly how good they are and build their confidence...especially the younger players like Sarr, JP, Wilmot and Quina. They don’t need a cold manager who seems to revel in keeping his distance from any sort of joy.
     
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  23. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    I think this is an interesting point, especially in the modern game and with younger players in particular. There is quite a significant likelihood of Ivic's CONSTANT surliness having an unintended 'Roy Keane' effect, rather than the grave seriousness of the task at hand that it's presumably designed to impart. It might not be a coincidence that our talented young forwards don't look like they're having any fun and are afraid to express themselves when the coach is a soviet propaganda strongman of a figure 100% of the time.
     
  24. Malteser2

    Malteser2 Reservist

    He is the Antichrist to exciting football.

    He’s presided over an away record of one win and only five goals in nine league and cup matches, in an era where with no fans, playing away should be slightly less daunting.

    He’s sucked the joy out of the club. Removed the little excitement we had left, after relegation and poor recruitment.

    He’s also not been helped by those providing the players for him. It’s all just a horrible, uninspiring, frustrating mess right now.
     
  25. The undeniable truth

    The undeniable truth First Team Captain

    We don't have an ageing forward line. Other than Troy (and the peripheral Murray who seems to have been put out to pasture) all our forwards are either young/promising or supposedly at their peak.
     
  26. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    Sarr for me is a wide player, and not a finisher and Pedro is in development, and not a player that you can hang your hat on, if we want promotion. The only proven strikers with a track record of scoring 20 goals at Championship level (or any level), are Deeney and Gray - who are past their peak. I quite like the look of Percia, but he hasn’t done it any level so far. Compared to our previous team that won promotion, this forward line is nowhere near as good.Deeney is our best CF and has been barely available.
     
  27. Chumlax

    Chumlax Squad Player

    But no one is arguing that Sarr is anything other than a wide player, and no one is arguing that our forward line is anywhere near as good as it was last time we were here. That's half the point. The only striker of any age that could be considered 'ageing' is Troy - the rest are still in their 20s, if that, so you can't put age down as a significant excuse for how rancid they are. They just are rancid, and that's what was said.
     
    wfcmoog likes this.
  28. davisp2

    davisp2 Reservist

    Agreed but several saying that we should change the manager. We need to improve the forward line and/or continue giving the likes of Pedro and Percia the opportunity, in the hope that they will develop into better players. Of course the forward line is not the only area we need to improve...
     
  29. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    We can’t afford the type of improvement I think you want.

    So it’s option B.) Play and develop the better strikers we have.

    Which means playing to their strengths and getting them to enjoy playing for us. Which the manager isn’t doing. It comes back to him.
     
  30. Heidar

    Heidar Squad Player

    Only encouragement is that we kept a clean sheet with four at the back.

    If we'd have conceded and lost it would be 3-5-2 for the duration.

    Nevertheless, I think he's a home defeat from Gino making a few calls. Preston is make or break. We literally cannot afford to fail this season.
     
  31. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    You say 'forward line,' but by the sounds of it, you mean striker, which, as has been pointed out, we have failed to improve when we were receiving 150m per season of TV money, so I'm not sure how you expect us to upgrade Gray and Deeney now that we are trying to close the gap in our accounts.
     
  32. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    We also stayed in the PL with those strikers (and didn’t have Sarr or JP to supplement them) so the idea they are the problem more than the tactics and dour nature of style is weak at best.

    They are a problem. But by no means the biggest the club has right now.
     
  33. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Eh, I'm not sure. We also got relegated with those strikers. They've been a problem for some time. I believe we stayed up as long as we did, in spite of our shambolic defence and terrible centre forwards rather than because of them.
     
  34. Burnsy

    Burnsy First Team

    Yeah. Sorry, can see the way my message could be taken.

    I just mean that we have decent enough striking options to get out of this division right now - but the conditions we are making them work under won’t see that happen. That’s the bigger issue.

    If we were creating chance after chance and squandering them, I’d pile more emphasis on the strikers being the main problem. But our style is barely even creating opportunities for them to miss.
     
    WillisWasTheWorst likes this.
  35. wfcmoog

    wfcmoog Tinpot

    Yeah. Agree that the system is a massive problem but I also think the personnel are pretty limited, or, in the case of Deeney and Gray, unfit for purpose.
     
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