Ivic Out

Again I agree. But I’m just looking at prioritising the biggest issue right now.

Deeney and Gray are a reality - there’s not a queue of clubs beating our door down to take them off us. So we either get them enjoying themselves and try and extract something from them - or we sideline them and go with JP, Sarr and Perica...and hope there’s room to move in January if someone does come in for Gray and/or Deeney.

To me, the style and atmosphere is the biggest barrier to immediate progressing things right now. I know I’ve mentioned him a bit in the last 24hrs - but give these strikers and this squad to someone like Allardyce, and he would get far more of a tune out of them.

 

Realpolitik is vital to our approach if we want any kind of success this season, as you say.

 

Yeah, I don't disagree with any of that.

Many of us on here have been saying that Gray and Deeney are **** for years. It seemed in the summer that the club finally realised, but by that point, nobody was going to buy either of them, or even take their wages off our hands. I can't see that changing as they struggle to get to grips with the Championship on Premier League wages.

I think they are gash, but they can't be got rid of, unless we pay them off.

 

I think they're now the biggest problems at the club, for sure.

If we had Toney instead of those two, which was the most obvious transfer ever, then I'm sure we'd be top of the league.

Our defence has been good enough on the whole this season. Our midfield has been hit-and-miss, and is still a man light, but when we eventually have everyone back fit it should also be alright.

I'm hopeful Perica gets more of a chance again as he's our only striker who I think could be a regular scorer at this level, but all our other strikers are complete wastes of space. No manager will make them good enough to fire us back to the PL again. Not Allardyce. Not Guardiola. No one.

 

Don’t get the hype about Brentford, considering they do have Toney then they’d be lower mid table/relegation battle with our forwards instead of him.

 

Flopped about 4 years ago

 

Out until February.
Believed to be stocking up on Baileys but probably not at Baileys,Paradise Lost or Paradise Wildlife Park.

 

Just another one that went wrong in a sea of all the good ones.

 

It’s not my suggestion that he would make Gray or Deeney good enough - but I do think he (or a manager of similar personality) would squeeze what little there is there out of them - and more importantly, get the others playing to their strengths and put smiles on their faces.

As I’ve said - I think the biggest problem we have is that a team needs to be enjoying themselves to be successful really. The longer the apathy continues here, the harder it’s gonna be. Something has to change and I think the time is drawing closer where we need to be pro-active about it rather than just hoping it suddenly clicks, players start smiling etc.

 

'touch of a rapist', 'trap a block of cement', 'polish a turd'....
I claim cliché bingo!.

 

Lost the plot since Baileys bought out a Salted Caramel version, which the wife says is the best thing she's ever had.

 

I think there's a bit of a chicken and egg-type scenario there: one could also speculate that a team needs to be successful to be enjoying themselves.

It'll be difficult for players to be enjoying themselves when they're being beaten most weeks in the PL, and it'd probably also be difficult for them to enjoy themselves in the Champ when they burst down the flanks, look up, and then see either a useless Gray or tardy Troy to aim for in the box...

 

Has this horrendous **** ****ed off yet?

 

Who did she drink it with?!

I’d ask questions.

 

Absolutely. Was it definitely the Baileys that was "the best she's ever had" ?

 

Defenders can be coached to defend better as can the defence and natural ability is not so important.

Strikers can't be taught to score goals, they have got it, or they havn't. Deeney and Gray havn't - whoever coaches them. That is why we have needed a decent striker for 3 years.

 

You’re missing ‘live, love, laugh’!

 

Some young, handsome African lad, who promised to nail her afterwards but then limply curled up in a chair and shat himself to sleep.

 

I don't fully agree with this.

I think it's easier (but not necessarily 'easy') to coach a defensive unit, made up of mediocre players, to work as a team and defend, however, how hard could it be for someone to explain to Deeney that gluing yourself to your marker is not your job - it's theirs! Deeney always looks to get straight into his defender's space and have a battle, instead of ever making those shifting moves to gain space that are a striker's best hope of making something happen.

You can also coach a team to be more effective going forward. Yes GT had our best player of all time on one flank during his first spell, but largely his methods were about creating a system that flourished even when the personnel were average. We would still create chances and score goals, even if we had mediocre players in attacking positions.

As for coaching Gray to be able to play football, I'm afraid that would even be beyond the miracles of the Nazarene himself. Or Paul Daniels.

 

You make some valid points but I agree with ZZ top. Scoring goals requires a level of ability that you’ve either got or you haven’t. If it was just a case of telling Troy where to run then top strikers would be 10 a penny. Of course that is one element of it, but being a decent goal scorer at the top level requires a minimum amount of skill and brain power that many don’t possess, and defenders don’t need anywhere near to be able to defend relatively well.

 

As a defender, I disagree. I've got skills.

 

Maybe it says more about the state of modern defenders, Maquire cost £80m and you rarely see him pop one on the top corner, beat a couple of men and leave them on their arse, lob the keeper etc etc etc.

To be a defender you need certain physical attributes, but beyond that you simply don’t need the same level of skill as a forward player.

 

Yeah well,

 

To be fair, I have never been a striker. I've moved into midfield and back into defence.

This year, I started out lean and fast and was definitely midfield material, but as I bulked during lockdown, it became clear that I was more suited to a defensive role, as I no longer have a turn of pace.

 

He's too slow and large to find space.

 

I don't think that should stop him. If he wanted to, it's only a step here or a shuffle there, but he moved into the defender. Every single time.

 

I really think it is a bit of both, ZZ. There's no question natural aptitude counts. But so does coaching, in all sorts of ways.
Besides, they have scored something like 220-ish (ball park), between them. Not fantastic, but not bad, either.

 

And John Barnes!

 

Still better than Deeney.

 

Modern day football though. FIFA led generation go wild if you play any other style other than tapping it out from the back, but then complain when it's dull to watch. The insistence on playing 'pretty football' has brainwashed some. I recall watching Barnsley do it at Chelsea in a cup game trying to pass their way out of the penalty area, twice they got caught on their way to a 6 goal hammering. There is nothing wrong with going long with a goal kick.

The dull football Watford are dishing up is the standard format of modern day football now.

 

But to caveat that, both Gray and Deeney have scored plentiful goals in their careers. You say they either have it or they don’t - I think it’s more nuanced than that.

With Deeney, he hasn’t done with intelligent players do as they age...adapt. He see’s himself as a big battering ram striker without realising most decent CB’s over the past year or two have had him in their pockets when he tries to play that way. I think there’s a style of play he could adapt where he could still be useful - but I doubt he see’s it in himself and doesn’t want to change. He thinks he can still mix it and outsprint a CB who is 10 years his junior.

With Gray, I still fail to believe he has just totally lost all ability. And like it or not, how goalscoring record suggests he knows where the net is - and he’s a decent age too. I just think he’s very limited in style/system he can play (front 2) and doesn’t have the attributes to be a lone striker. And he’s a a massive confidence player and he won’t get that confidence playing our style!

 

Gray I really don’t know about, maybe an extended run will build his confidence and first touch etc up, but his display the other day was so alarming it’s difficult to imagine. Maybe because he’s been so crap for so long he over thinks everything and messes it up, the only way I can see him turning a corner is of Ivic tells him he’s got the next 10 games in the team whatever he does, that way he might be inclined to panic less in every situation. The question is can we afford to do that? Especially with Perica now available who could be a better option, hard to imagine how he could be worse.

Troy is an easy one, he scored goals at championship level 6 years ago, then scored a few open play goals n the PL for the first few seasons. For the past couple he didn’t.

He’s simply old, unfit, slow and over the hill. The ability he has or does still have is over ridden by all of that. That happens to everyone eventually.