Is this as good as it gets under Pozzo?

Voting so far is:
48.9% in
51.1% out
Our very own version of Wexit with hardening views and family feuds coming up.
I foresee banners and marches, and when it gets really close to Gino deciding to sell up and buy Charlton, diehard Watford fans will be glueing themselves to The Hornets Shop entrance and the High Street Pond in a pitiful state of denial.


In reality, I like Sherlock’s view of Watford being a mirror image of what is happening at Udinese but with more big cheques from Premier League TV rights etc.

Long may we be a top half/middlin EPL team selling our stars and bringing new ones in, sifting the gems from the dross, and repeat.
And having forays in Europe and long runs in domestic cups, and upsetting the Big Six and the biased pundits and media on a regular basis.
That, I believe will be the lot of a future Watford fan while the Pozzos are in charge.

The next huge financial step-change up I just can’t see happening. But would love to be wrong.
After all, we just need Gino or someone else to come in with the attitude (and resources) of:
“Some men see things as they are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were, and ask why not.”

I still pinch myself when I was brought up on a diet of 3rd division football with the excitement of a Liverpool or Man U cup team coming to town.
I hope we never become an entitled fan base expecting success and looking down on the Plymouth Argyles and Millwalls and Lincoln Citys of this footballing world. Salt of the earth die hard fans following their clubs thro thick and thin.
It was us not so long ago and we’ve just got lucky with the great SEJ/God and now Pozzo family changing WFC’s fortunes for hopefully the next decade or five.

 

Javi could be a 10 yearer.

 

Is Pozzo’s mid interested in football?

Does he have a choice?

 

My main take out from this week is that to save the planet, you need to glue yourself to something.

To what will the members of the panel be gluing themselves on Saturday?

 

excellent and very informative post

 

This is near as good as it gets for a club the size of Watford but that does not mean it is all downhill from here.
Finishing 5th or 6th would be possible but not easy, winning a cup (maybe we will this year, maybe not), and competing in Europe while having a decent season are all within our grasp. What we should not expect is to have every season as good as this. Clubs like Leicester and Burnley show that a first year in Europe makes it tough to also hold well up the league. The future trick will be to go there.
I do not believe Pozzo is a pure mercenary. I get the impression he likes having his clubs doing well. If money was all important to him selling Watford and buying a Championship club would be quite a risk and might again take a few years to achieve - meanwhile he would not be getting Premiership monies.

 

Hopefully our CBs glue themselves to Jota & Raul whilst Andre glues his boots on the correct feet.

 

It's an interesting thing you say. The fact you say you DON'T think he's a mercenary, implies others possibly do.

I think that feeling stems from his aloofness. He rarely gives interviews, which I think is a shame. I think that would improve the bond/trust between him and some fans. I think if he gave one major interview a year, maybe in the summer in the close season, that would be a great thing. Watford fans love the guy, and he's got to go a long way in order to devalue his reputation.

I think many would like to hear what he feels about the club, what he hopes to achieve, is he as passionate about Watford now, as his family are over Udinese. What are his long term goals. Just to reaffirm what he's said previously if you like, just to see if this still holds true. I know SD speaks for him, but sometimes it's good to hear things from the horses mouth, so to speak.

Being quiet can be misinterpreted as being a bit mercenary, devoid of any emotion and calculated in that it's all just about money.

But I know this is not the case. You cannot be in football and not have an emotional attachment. Gino is at the club's training ground every day. He watches every match home and away. He MUST love football in order to do that, and if you're that close to Watford, dealing with it every day, it becomes a passion and you care about the club greatly.

I think he uses strict business practises. You have to strip away emotion in order to do the right thing. You have to make key decisions and you have to believe in your method of what works.

It's like if you trade in the stock market. You cannot get emotional over your shares. You have to be strict and work within your tried and trusted strategies in order to make money. As soon as you let your heart rule your head you are in trouble. I see Gino as this type of person, and if he was a trader, he'd be brilliant at it. Gino Axelrod.

 

Let’s hope so, but likelihood is if he carries on like this he ll get a better offer .

 

I believe that Gino is already onto this , perhaps sell a non majority take to fund expansion.

I’m not of he belief that Gino will sell up and retire on the 200+million he’s made on the club.

He comes from a wealthy family , and seems the sort of man who believes personal achievement is more important than accrueing wealth for the sake of it .

Long term ie 5-10 years I believe there is a gap in the market for a big club in NW London. There is a huge expanse of outer London that has no club.

In the way that Spurs represent outer NE London, and bits of Essex and Herts , Watford could come to represent Herts And NW London.

It would take a long period of sustained success , increase The Vic to 30k, and probably the Tube extension would help .

It’s blue sky thinking , but bigger things have been achieved by lesser men . So why not .

 

Petchey ?

 

Fewer.

 

Let's take this a step further and suggest, how do Watford become a "big" club? Might need it's own thread.

Over the past 40 years Watford have been in the top flight for 14 years (including next season), 24 in the second tier and just 2 in the third tier. That's a pretty impressive record. Ok, before that we were very much a lower league club, but are not now.

In my supporting life-time, we've been a top two league club for all but a couple of seasons. So, maybe we should be a bigger club than we actually appear to be?

Now, when I talk about big club, I'm not talking Liverpool, City, United, Arsenal etc, I'm talking about West Ham, Everton, Leicester, Newcastle. That size of club. Could Watford ever be a club of that size? Ok, we're never going to get the following of Newcastle, we just don't have the catchment for it, but there is no reason why we cannot grow the fanbase to a solid 30k, with a stadium to match.

Some things do have to change though, and this is out of our control. The way we are portrayed in the media, has always been dreadful. We are one of those clubs that no one really likes. The underdog tag doesn't apply to us. It's more, you're a little club, get back to where you belong. If we were a little more accepted, then I think that would go a long way in growing the club externally.

I guess the size of a club comes from the stadium. Spurs have transformed into a Super club overnight, based purely on their stadium.

The club is growing, but in small steps. It's taking big leaps on the field, but off it, we are growing slowing of it. But that's all you can do really. A status of a club relies 100% on the results on the first team. If United were to be relegated, then they would be a just Championship club, not a Premier League/European giant.

So, it's obviously vital to stay in the Premier League forever. Well, for the length of this project, and I'll put a 40 year cap on it...…..after that I'll be dead and wouldn't care too much what happens.

Basically the question is, could we become a big established EPL club, winning domestic trophies, qualifying for Europe, always finishing in the top 10?

I know 40 years is a long time. In 2024 European competition is going to expand, so clubs further down the pyramid will be able to qualify for a European competition of some sort, so European competition won't be just for the elite, it will be for the majority in the Premier League......certainly the right of the top 10.

Will we always be what we are right now? Or will we ever transform permanently to the next level?

 

He was emotionally attached to the Vicarage Road stand he built. Bricks and mortar was his thing.

 

There are still too many things up in the air to call. Should we qualify for the Europa League, then I'd vote 'no', as there'd be a chance we could also manage a good European cup run next season and that would be the cherry on the cake.

However, should we not qualify for the EL, then I'd probably vote 'yes', because even though it would still leave us with more room to progress as a club the chances of us being able to make that progress could be more difficult next season. It would really depend on whether we could keep Doucoure and Deulofeu, and sign upgrades at CB and ST. Even then, it may be more difficult for us to finish 7th given that I'd expect Leicester and Everton to also have better seasons.

Another thing, a lot of our key players are now in their 30s: Capoue (30), Holebas (34), Cathcart (30), Deeney (30), Foster (36) - they can't be expected to keep up the same level of performance and intensity indefinitely. Another season at the same level should be possible, but in a couple of seasons we may need to consider replacing them, and that could be difficult.

 

'Is this as good as it gets?'
No!

Expect to have more cup runs, longer cup runs.
Expect us to regularly (not every year) challenge for the top half of the table and occasionally runs in Europe.
If not this year then soon although I am hopeful for this year.

 

We may struggle to get a longer cup run than this unless you're prepared to accept a couple of relegations first ?

 

Or they bring back replays.

 

I think too much in this is confused. Since 2004 the league title has been won by 3 teams Man U (5), Chelsea (5) and Man C (3) plus the aberration Leicester.
But you do not mean that level of big it seems. Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton are big clubs but have not won the league -but Everton apart you also do not mean that level. Only 6 teams have been in the Premiership all along - Man City have not.
So what is a big team? If it is supporters we will never have the catchment area to get crowds of 50- 60 thousand. That is reserved for big city clubs.
So how do we become "big"? Newcastle, Leeds, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Southampton and even perhaps Birmingham, Sheffield United and Wednesday and Portsmouth have fans who consider their clubs big - but perhaps on "hard times" for now?
Are Norwich and Blackburn "big " clubs? Are QPR and Fulham.
I don't think anyone can define what a big club really is.
What Watford can do is to emulate many teams who stay largely in the top flight and if relegated get back up pretty soon. To be considered more than say a Wigan or Wimbledon - even Bournemouth - we do need to have a larger stadium and fill it regularly. A stadium that holds 30 to 35 thousand and is regularly full demonstrates a pretty large and successful club. If we could get there I would be happy but it won't be achieved at Vicarage Road as the site is just too small. Moving elsewhere risks losing some of our "soul" whatever that may be.

 

With regards to stadium, I honest to believe that goes a long way in confirming a club's status.

We cannot be even considered anything other than the pinup small club, because our stadium is so small.

Right now we sit 42nd in England for stadium capacity. So that would put us in 22nd position in the Championship. If we do elevate the capacity to 30k, which Duxbury is striving for, that would put us 27th. 7th in the Championship. However, another 5k on top of that, making 35k, which I would consider is our limit, that would actually put us 14th.

It's not a vanity project, but it sets a real expectation for that club. It doesn't mean you'll be successful, but it does mean you'll be taken seriously as a club.

I've never had a problem with moving from Vicarage Road. I personally think we've outgrown it, and it has so many issues when it comes to expansion. But, to build a nice new stadium, like a smaller 35k replica of Tottenham's, would be incredible, but very expensive.

Gino has no appetite for that though. He's invested far too much in tarting up the Vic to ever move away from it.

We don't need to be a big club, but we do need to be a club that everyone feels is Premier League in every aspect. Right now, we've got a "crashing the party" reputation, with it only being a matter of time before we go back from whence we came.

 

The real question is what level of attendance can we expect if capacity was no issue. I'm not sure we could consistently fill 35k now when we are 8th in the prem. How empty and soulless would it feel when we are mid table championship ?

 

Well, that's a good point and that's the next stage, getting bums on seats. But the stadium has to come first.

With good design, you can have upper tiers closed for non-category A games. You can have two upper tiers behind the goals, or even alongside the pitch, which can have shutters pulled down when they are not needed. It would reduce the capacity by 5k or even 10k if required. But for really big games, then they can be opened to 30k or 35k capacities.

For these occasional tiers, then you would not sell season tickets for them obviously, it will be just for no-season ticket holders.

With the waiting list for STs being a problem right now, we do need a bigger stadium than 21k. We can easily fill 25k for Category A matches, even now.

Over the coming years, if we maintain our EPL status and become a solid top 10 side, we will naturally gain more support. I think we'd grow into a bigger stadium over a 10 year period of sustained Premier League football.

 

I'm not sure i agree 100% with you. I think you need to assess the maximum consistent demand before you decide to build. the obvious question is what capacity could we reach at the Vic. If we can get to 25-30k I think that would be an excellent decsion. Anything bigger than that or a complete relocation would take a real leap of faith that we can remain at his level consistently and increase the fanbase.

 

You may not agree, but a decision has already been made to increase VR to 30k. SD has made that claim on several occasions at Fans Forum's etc. That's public knowledge and it's the club's ambition to do this.

I understand getting the Vic to 35k is probably not feasible on the current footprint. But to get to the level of being an established top 10 EPL club, in terms of infrastructure, I think we do need to have a 35k capacity stadium.

 

I think if we can get VR to 30k there would be no business case to incur the cost and disruption of relocating to get from 30k to 35k. I think we would struggle to fill 30k most weeks but we do need to increase from what we have so might as well go to 30k than just 25k if feasible.

 

Was a final decision made to go to 30k, or to go to 25k with an option of 30k later?

Whichever, to build our fanbase we have to take share from other London clubs. There was a fascinating study mentioned on here a few years ago about the footprint of different clubs' followings. Half remembering that, we would have to convert a lot of natural Spurs fans in NW & N London. I wouldn't have thought @rsenal fans are a realistic target.

Spurs is a tough one. An outstanding, charismatic manager, the England captain & a new stadium.

Things will change but, ironically, the less successful Spurs are, the easier it will be for their marginal fans to get a ticket to see them.

The other option is to target Bucks/Beds/Berks. Some of the finest, stout limbed contributors to this forum are Buckinghamians but I fear the natural association here will be with the best team in London/the best team in the Prem.

The other route is to forget about stadium size & focus on being the best version of what we are.

The comparison which springs to mind is, naturally, Villareal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villarreal_CF

17 of the last 18 seasons in the top division, lashings of Europe & in a league with many big stadia & strong regional support & where tv money skews much more to the elite clubs.

Or our cousins who are enjoying their 23rd Serie A season in a row.

With stadium & fanbase, which is cause & which effect? My hunch is that you build your support & then the stadium. The 'build it & they'll come' approach is a bit Hollywood. The cost of a new stadium is certain & huge, the revs from currently non existent fans is speculative. TUT can circulate the spreadsheet.

 

Not sure whether this has been posted elsewhere but an interesting article on what happened to the last pre-Pozzo squad under SD. Shows how far we have come. Sorry if it's been posted elsewhere.

https://www.planetfootball.com/nost...he-last-watford-xi-before-the-pozzo-takeover/

 

You say that but things didn't go too well for them after loaning us Hoggy did it ?
Relegation to the championship followed by almost going bust after last season's Play-off final defeat ?

 

HB1 makes an interesting point re should United be relegated then they would be an ordinary championship team!

I doubt now whether any of the top six would be relegated in the near future, however since I have been a supporter (1969) 4 of the top six have been relegated, Man united, Spurs, Chelsea and Man City! leaving only Arsenal and Liverpool as ever presents in the top flight however go back a little bit longer and Liverpool were promoted to the top division in 1962 after having been relegated in 1954

Food for thought!

 

Indeed. My first trip (for some reason lost in the sands of time) to Anfield was to see them play Rotherham United in the Second Division, Boxing Day 1960 - a 2-1 win for the Reds - followed the next day by a 1-0 win for Utd at Millmoor!
Incidentally, that trip to Anfield allowed me to see, in goal for Liverpool, a certain Bert Slater.....

 

Hasn’t been all wine & roses for our Huddersfield colleagues since they loaned him from us.

The guy’s like a walking 12 point deduction.

 

You’re the same year as me!

The top 6 won’t be the top 6 in 10 years’ time, despite the tv money.

It’s actually the personal wealth which is the key factor &, when RA goes, Chelsea are vulnerable. Spurs without Poch won’t be the same force & wouldn’t it be interesting if Abu Derby got bored of football?

 

And will be again soon, possibly.

 

Maybe it is about time transfer fees on a par with those for players came about. Javi - the first £100m coach !

 

Everyone who voted "No" - still confident?! We're definitely going to need a fair few fresh legs to come back from this. The way we've finished this season, and the age of many of our key players, is going to make it difficult for us to pick up our performances again to even the same level as how we were performing prior to the semi final.