Is Our Scouting Network Up To Scratch ?

Well is it? Where are all the young hungry players?

 

It's been downhill since we signed Abdi.

 

Not necessarily. Finding players is only 1/3 the battle. Getting them to sign and then utilising them properly are also important.

We could find the next international big thing like Lloyd Doyley but if he doesn't want to sign for us because the team is poo it's not a fault of the scouting network it's a fault of team management & ownership.

We could spend £40M on a superstar but if he's not given the right training and introduction into the squad or used at all then what was the point?

 

It worked in the Championship because other teams didn't have the funding of infrastructure to compete. Now that we're in the PL it isn't really anything special.

 

If we had a 'scouting network' surely we'd be uncovering players that weren't already on everyone else' radar and thus, have the jump in terms of signing them.

The issue is, in lieu of a scouting network, we're fishing in the same pool as everyone else and we're not big enough in terms of draw or funding to compete.

A club our size needs an equaliser. Either a more forensic approach to scouting, or a blistering youth set up. Just buying the players that Everton and Newcastle don't want, will never be good enough for sustainable success.

 

The major downfall of our recruitment policy is the lack of recruitment of players that are just abut to hit their prime and are available in our price range. Dele Alli & James Maddison are 2 examples of players that fit this criteria. They had experience in lower divisions and made the step up to PL level quickly. Their sell on value is now astronomical so huge profitable potential there. Sarr didi fit this criteria, but he was probably further on in his development hence the price tag. I'd much rather this type of player, then a failed overseas export from a big team that might come good again and available on the cheap, or a kid who might develop into a world beater. We need ripe and ready talent, 1st team players.

 

I think several players in some key positions got old at the same time. We thought we were "on the cusp" after last year, but we really needed to inject the youth/new blood.

 

What we fail to have is a clear succession plan for our youngsters

Goal keepers a case in point … with Gomes selected for cup and for sub keeper on a Saturday how are likes of Bachman and Dahlberg to progress?

Remainder of youth must be thinking too when they will get game time..... two/three years trying to groom Penaranda only for him when gets clear of injury to loan him out again

For scouting generally a failure to bring in or more likely an unwillingless to fork out the going rate for young british talent

Too much a scattergun supermarket sweep approach to transfer window in the past but seems this time concentrated on Sarr who for whatever reason doesn't seem to have worked out

All this wouldn't have been a massive issue had we prepared properly for our first game and having the misfortune of it being Graham Potter's first game in charge for Brighton. Don't think the effect confidence has on the team both defensively and going forward is fully understood by some of our support.

 

I think what we've failed at previously is signing players for the first team. I think the scouting network in terms of finding young players is very good. The trouble is the majority of them have needed work permits, passports etc and no matter how good the potential is, you never know how a young player will turn out.

 

Yes. Their tried and trusted model is to find a bunch of youngsters, throw them into the team, sell the ones that swim and bin the ones that sink. We buggered this up by getting promoted. They can't throw untried players into our team in the prem as we'd be relegated so the younger fringe players can't get game time with us plus they now need to be recruiting prem quality players for big bucks which is not what they've traditionally done. Maybe our relegation will help them as they can once again fill our squad with cheap imports while we tread water in the champ?

 

It's complete gash. See the squads of Watford FC and Udinese for further details.

 

Isn't basically what happened that the Pozzo's made Udinese by creating a network that no-one else had in far-flung places that unearthed gems, but then everyone else realised that it worked and copied them, but with far more resource behind them, leaving the Pozzo's just doing what everyone else does?

 

How is this myth still being peddled? Clubs have been buying players from outside of europe since way before the pozzos were even swimming around in their fathers nutsack.

 

I don't think its any better than any other team in the prem. Scatter gun approach is bound to find a few decent players. None of them are world class

 

There will be huge competition for the type of player you describe and I'm not sure Maddison is such a good example as he cost over £20m for Leicester to buy.
Even someone of a similar age & with a similar record as Alli, for a club like Watford, would be a pretty big gamble. Paying between £5m & £6m for a 19 year old with sixty-odd games a few times without success (not Isaac!) will soon take its toll on the transfer budget. *cough* Obbi *cough* Oulare (who actually scored at the weekend for Standard Leige), but then there's Dodi Lukebakio who turned a decent profit. Swings and roundabouts.

We did pick up Hughes & Chalobah at decent prices and I'd bracket those two as the types you describe.

We paid a fee for Sam Dalby this season (I think I read it was rumoured to be somewhere in the region of £1m plus add-ons) so the willingness is there, it's just a question of them working out.

He wasn't free from injury as he'd undergone surgery for a badly damaged hamstring playing for Venezuela in the off season. His loan made complete sense in terms of him playing at a lower level while recovering and getting a loan fee, no matter how big or small, in the process.
As is usually the way when anyone has an operation, he's now not playing after picking up niggly secondary injuries.

 

I always thought that but then realised the majority of their players we've signed are from European teams though, specifically Spain, Italy and France. I guess Granada and Udinese would've got some players from further afield before they transferred over to us?

Richarlison obviously was a great signing, but I struggle to think of anyone else that is considered far-flung, a lot of unknowns in Peneranda, Pedro, Cucho and the army of kids we have playing all over Spain.

 

One of our next big things, announced with full social media fanfare, is absolutely destroying one the top leagues in Europe:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/adalberto-penaranda/profil/spieler/308801

 

Where has this 'old squad' thing come from?
(Not aimed directly at you SkylaRose, I've just a little time at the moment to address it).

I've seen it mentioned on here since the start of the season but I just don't buy it.

The average age of those considered 1st team squad members who are able to play, (ie. not out on loan), is 27.65, which isn't old at all.
That also includes Zeegelaar who, let's face it, shouldn't play for us again and at 29 he pushes the average up a fraction.

Foster (36yrs old), Gomes (38) & Holebas (35) push the average up but they're balanced out by Dahlberg (20), Quina (19) and Dele-Bashiru (20).
Considering two of the oldest are 'keepers, it means they'll never be on the pitch at the same time so the average for any starting XI will be lessened by this.

Out of the players available (29), ten are 30+ years of age and ten are 25 years old & younger. That leaves nine between 26 & 29 years of age.
That looks a reasonably well balanced squad to me.

It's the quality of individuals and cohesion between players that is lacking, not anything to do with age.

 

The time to sign Maddison was when Norwich did from Coventry. Undisclosed fee but think it was in the region of £3 million, sold him for £20 million a couple of years later. Alli had played so many games and scored so many goals for MK Dons he wasn't a risk at £5 million. The lack of willingness to take a chance on up and coming youngsters is a real frustration.

 

They have been buying players from outside Europe certainly, but the way in which they've been buying players has certainly changed. Clubs have been looking to get players in younger and younger (as they'll be cheaper than spunking 30-100m on the finished product), this was traditionally Udineses (and Porto/Benfica etc) model. But now those youth tournaments have many many more scouts from more clubs that previously.

 

I hadn't read too much about Maddison before so it's interesting to see what happened to him when Norwich did buy him.
Loaned straight back to Coventry for the second half of the season before going to Scotland with Aberdeen the following year. So, not too dissimilar to what we do with the many foreign youngsters - buy early and loan out to a league deemed a lesser standard to the one we're competing in at the time, in the hope they develop to either sell or integrate into the squad (and then sell).

Alli's record certainly stands up at MK Dons (60+ games, 18 goals I think). I just wonder how many sides went in for him because I remember quite a lot was made of Man.Utd not putting in an offer after he'd done well against them when MK beat United in the League Cup and then his impact at Spurs. How did a club who'd been on the receiving end not noticed his quality? Was he even within Watford's reach at the time?

So is the frustration we didn't get these particular players, because we don't appear to plunder the English lower leagues or that every transfer is, in effect, a gamble due to multiple reasons which this season hasn't worked for Watford?

It looks to me as if everything is being questioned (and rightly so) not because what the owners do isn't without merit but because we're bottom of the table and playing so poorly. The same methods employed by Pozzo & Duxbury got Watford to a seemingly excellent position on and off the pitch last season after a relatively short ownership but, because this season has turned into a nightmare it seems to mean everything they do is wrong. Surely their record here and at their other clubs shows their methods are generally sound if not built to make a club capable of sustained trophy chasing while always being at risk of imploding - just like the vast majority of clubs outside of the elite in each league throughout the world?

 

Considering Utds transfer policy over the past 5 years it's not that surprising they didn't make a move for him. At the time he joined Tottenham there were rumours that Liverpool + Bayern were in for Alli so he was probably out of our reach already.

 

Agree with this. I think there’s also been a general trend toward clubs using data on a wider scale, along with video scouting to identify possible signings. They may have been innovative at one point, which gave them a potential advantage, but as other clubs have caught up, it doesn’t feel as though we’ve been able to adapt and innovate further to gain a competitive advantage once again.

 

I thought I'd take a quick look at young emerging players Watford have signed in the last 18 months or so who we've either paid a fee for, are currently listed in the 1st team squad or have had some league experience prior to coming to Vicarage Road.

Are the club really trying to mine the lower leagues or those on the fringes of more established clubs, looking for the next Dele Alli or James Maddison as was suggested earlier in the thread, or have we concentrated solely on experience since promotion to the Premier League?

It's just not possible to sign 3, 4 or 5 emerging talents every transfer window without either clogging the squad up with young players who aren't going to command a regular 1st XI place or who could/should go out on loan so their development isn't stunted.

But what this quickly cobbled list shows, and I may have missed some players, is they're not afraid to spend money on young players they target alongside more experienced signings but getting them into the team is, to me, the bigger problem.

January 2018
Pontus Dahlberg (20yrs old) - fee £3.5m - 0 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 29 league apps for IFK Goteberg
after joining Watford - 10 league apps for IFK Goteberg

May 2018
Ben Wilmot (19) - fee £1.5m - 2 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 10 league apps for Stevenage
after joining Watford - 5 league apps for Udinese, 3 league apps for Swansea (current side)

August 2018
Domingos Quina (19) - fee £1m - 9 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 0 league apps for West Ham United
after joining Watford - not loaned out

January 2019
Filip Stuparevic (19) - fee £2m - 0 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 56 league apps for Vozdovac
after joining Watford - 13 league apps for Vozdovac, 3 league apps for FK Pribram (current side)

July 2019
Tom Dele-Bashiru (20) - fee £0m - 0 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 0 league apps for Manchester City
after joining Watford - not loaned out

Sam Dalby (19) - fee £1m - 0 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 18 league apps for Leyton Orient, 0 league apps for Leeds United, 2 league apps for Morcambe
after joining Watford - not loaned out

August 2019
Ismaila Sarr (21) fee £25-£30m - 5 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 31 league apps for Metz, 59 league apps for Rennes
after joining Watford - not loaned out

Kaylen Hinds (21) fee £0m - 0 league apps for Watford
before joining Watford - 0 league apps for Arsenal, 13 league apps for Stevenage, 1 league app for Vfl Wolfsberg, 1 league app for Greuther Furth II
after joining Watford - not loaned out

January 2020
Joao Pedro (18) - fee £10m

(I'm sure there are other players but I've only included those who would be able to play without the need of, or have qualified for, a work permit - except for Stuparevic and that's due to the size of transfer fee paid).

 

I think it’s fair to say we continue to buy young talent, but we fail miserably to develop them.

Poor loan arrangements and absurdly holding onto players like Gomes must contribute.

We did successfully develop Richarlison and Lukebakio but immediately sold them for profit.

The result of general development failure and then instantly selling the rare successes means the first team is packed with older, stale players like Holebas, Gomes, Marriapa, Foster, Cleverly, Cathcart, Gray and Deeney. The squad seems never to refresh.

 

The issue isn't that we don't buy young players, it's the type of young players we target domestically. They're mainly cast offs from other academies (with the exception of Wilmot).

What we don't do is take a chance on the youngsters who are tearing things up in the Football League or Scottish football. The ones we go for have no, or very limited, senior football. Youth football isn't a good yardstick for potential, look at all the "next big things" we've had in our academy, some of whom are now scrambling around trying to get a start on loan in League 1 or 2.

I'd like us to target young players that have broken into lower league first teams and are performing really well. They will obviously cost a bit more than a random South American but the chance of them succeeding and playing a part for us would be much higher.

 

All of Dele Alli, Maddison and Maguire were firmly in the shop window for all clubs prior to their moves MK Dons/Spurs, Coventry/Norwich/ Leicester and Hull/Leicester respectively.

The point around Maddison being more available when leaving Coventry (SLB) was well made though. Why should Norwich be more attractive than us? Leicester are more attractive/bigger/recently won the whole damn thing than us and being in or near London is probably less of a draw for home-grown players than it is for foreigners. Alli went to a big London club anyway.

My point here is that just because it's relatively easy to point to outstanding young home-grown talent (with a degree of hindsight) doesn't mean that we could ever have got those players in the face of the competition. All those players might have had a variety of reasons (mostly around 'higher profile' and 'wages' though) to choose to go elsewhere. And it is their choice. Not for us to dictate.

 

I think a lot of supporters (me included) would like the same as you with regards to targeting a certain type of player from the lower leagues, but we don't appear to either do it or are unsuccessful in our attempts to do so.

So if we're unsuccessful, why is that.
It could be our lack of using younger talented players in the first team which puts potential players/agents off.
Are we not willing to pay enough in transfer fees and/or wages.
Are we seen as a club who will not stay in the Premiership so we look like a one step forward, two steps back career move.
Are we just not seen as a progressive or stable club. Does the media ******** with regards to 'constantly changing their manager' put players off.
I'm sure there are other reason that can be added.

Why would we not try to sign young British players who are making a breakthrough at their lower league club.
Number one on that list will be potentially high transfer fees for what the people at the club may consider high risk transfers.
Player attitudes. Are players and/or their agents just looking for an instant payday. (I think it was new Head of Academy Richard Thomas who said one of the things the club is looking at when bringing younger players is attitude before ability.)
Is it easier and/or more financially viable to scout young foreign players and loan them out than it is British players.
Whatever the profile of player type we look for, are they not there in the first place - no, I don't believe that either!
Again, there'll be other possible reasons others can add.

The development squad will and should have a two or three year cycle of players. Once they're ineligible for the u18s they need to show they're progressing enough to be viable for first team football somewhere for loan moves to either push up future transfer fees or gain experience to break into our first team squad further down the line.
That we're now attracting players from the Manchester Utds and Arsenals is certainly a progression from the players released from lower league academies. They're still punts and if we can get two or three per cycle who either make money or (somehow) get in the main squad then it'll be doing a job. It'll be interesting next season how many of those bought in at the start of 2019/20 go out on loan and how they fare as opposed to Jakubiak & Folivi this season.

Just one thing I'd like to say; no player bought in is a 'random' player from anywhere. They'll be scouted and processed rather than picked out of a hat. Just because none of us here will have heard about Juergen Elitim or Kwasi Sibo or Jaime Alvarado doesn't mean they don't have the same potential to flourish or progress as any British player of a similar age with similar experience.

 

Troy's hungry enough for all of them.

 

I think it's fairly straightforward. The amount of risk, in going for such players, wasn't considered to be worth the potential reward. I think as soon as another EPL shows an interest, the Pozzos look elsewhere. Basically, money.

 

It's as simple as that isn't it, is what they spend on a player deemed a suitable investment on that particular individual, his future worth to the club as a player and then to the club as a sellable asset.

It's not for the want of trying players aren't bought in but for the want of value for money.

The club didn't buy in the summer due to a lack of value in players/availability, but because the value of the club as a whole will go down with relegation, they'll spend more on individuals to make sure the business (the club) keeps its worth.

Is that correct or am I talking out of my arse because I've no business sense whatsoever!

 

I think it pretty much is that simple.

 

Maybe we should recruit some youth coaches from other clubs ? I’ve heard Crewe have recently released some .

 

what’s odd, worrying, strange or I just can’t work out is how come the above two named players are not automatic starters for their respective loan clubs, they are more often than not on the bench, they have had enough years in out set up, if they can only make lower league team benches, it doesn’t say much for our youth set-up!